Video Transcript

Edmund Mitchell: Hello everyone and welcome back to The Real+True Podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts, Edmund Mitchell, and today we are talking about this term, it’s become a little bit of a buzzword if you’re in ministry circles called Missionary Discipleship. And we’re gonna be talking with the wonderful Julianne Stanz. Before we get into this, I just want to share a few recommended readings that you could go to turn to to prepare yourself for this conversation, or maybe after this episode you could go to these readings three recommended readings. So the first is Evangelii Gaudium. We talk about this a lot in the podcast. So, um, Church Document by Pope Francis. The second would be, and I highly encourage this, especially if you’re a fan of Real+True. And if, uh, you’re a fan of the Catechism. It’s a document called The Informative Dossier on the Catechism. And it’s a letter that was given out to all the bishops informing them about the history of the most recent Catechism, how it was put together and some of its elements and dimensions. And then the third would be a wonderful book called Divine Renovation by Father James Mallon. And the reason I’m recommending that book, even if you’re not in parish ministry, I’d recommend that book because there is a chapter, one of the first chapters covers the kind of history of the Church documents leading up to before Vatican II, leading up to Vatican II. And then after Vatican II, they kind of trace this history of evangelization and catechesis and really lay out the Church’s understanding of evangelization and catechesis, which really culminates in missionary discipleship. So those are three areas that really help you, uh, really enter into this conversation more deeply. And even if you don’t read those things, I think you’ll still enjoy this conversation, and I think this is a wonderful topic. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Julianne Stanz.

Hi everyone, and welcome back to The Real+True Podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts, Edmund Mitchell, and I’m here today with Julianne Stanz. So Julianne, um, if you haven’t heard of her already, you should hear about her. She’s a nationally known speaker, a retreat leader storyteller. She’s a director of Parish Life and Discipleship in the Diocese of Green Bay. She’s also a consultant to the USCCB Committee on Catechesis and Evangelization. And she’s also involved in the National Eucharistic Revival. She’s the author of some books that you should definitely check out, Braving the Thin Places, Start With Jesus, as well as other books that are really, really great. So I just wanna welcome Julianne to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Julianne Stanz: Thanks so much. It’s good to be with you today.

Edmund Mitchell: Did I get all of that right? Um, for the National Eucharistic Congress, uh, or revival, you’re involved in that as well, right?

Julianne Stanz: Yep. I’m on the Executive Leadership team. There’s a group of us that work directly with Bishop Cousins to kind of strategize on how we are gonna bring this whole conference and whatever happens after that to birth. So yeah, they’re doing that now for about two or three years.

Edmund Mitchell: That’s awesome. So, um, way back when, when I first became aware of you at the last minute, a week before a diocesan retreat, I was called to substitute for someone who, you know, something had come up and for, for uh, reasons they couldn’t control, they couldn’t make it. And so, um, I was given a bunch of resources and paperwork and stuff. I’m like, Hey, here’s what the retreat leader was going to use, this woman named Julianne. And I’m going through all this stuff and I’m like, this is amazing. Like, this is what I would’ve, I think the retreat was supposed to be on the Kerygma and discipleship. And I was going through all these handouts and I was like, man, I just want to use all this stuff. This stuff is great. And a lot of it, I think there was a lot of it in there on missionary discipleship. And so when we were thinking about the Catechism and missionary disciples and who to have on you were the first person I thought of. And today we wanted to talk in more depth about missionary discipleship.

Julianne Stanz: That just makes my heart so happy because, you know, you work in sort of as an author or writer speaker and the silence of your heart with what’s stirring with the Kerygma, how you can bring this alive. And then to see it walk out across the country and different people become excited by it, and then connect that directly to the source material and the Catechism. That is just so exciting for me. Cause I’m seeing it more and more. There’s great synergy across the country with the understanding of catechesis and discipleship and evangelization that they’re not in opposition to each other, but that they all flow into this continuum of life in how we’re called to walk with people.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. That, and that was my experience as well, working in parish ministry from, you know, early 2011 and then 10 years on from that is that this term of missionary discipleship, it seemed like more and more of us were getting this, this theme from a lot of the Church documents. So maybe you could explain briefly like what is missionary discipleship and why, why is it becoming more popular in the Church?

Julianne Stanz: Well, yeah, it’s a great question and I think it’s germane to everything that we talk about going forward. You know, we, we’ve, as a Church, we’ve talked about discipleship for 2000 years. We hear very clearly Jesus’ words to go and make disciples, right? But in 2013, we were introduced to this new term, which was missionary discipleship. So discipleship, we had a great theology scriptural basis for, but missionary discipleship was something that gave a lot of people pause to think. And, you know, it’s very much rooted in, you know, a continuum of Pope Paul VI and St. John Paul II’s Theology of New Evangelization, of being, um, filled with the Gospel and being called and sent forth to be on mission in our homes, in our communities, in our neighborhood. So the idea of going to the missions as somewhere far away, well, we’ve, we’ve had a, a great theology of missiology, but the understanding that you are on mission right where you are, that was new for a lot of Catholics. And there was something very profound in that document, Evangelii Gaudium, which is the document that that term was used in, which is called a post synodal apostolic exhortation. It was written by Pope Francis after the Synod. And they talked about this particular understanding that we need to go out as Catholics enfused with this baptismal zeal and fire that was given to us that hopefully can come to maturity and discipleship to share what’s been given with others. And, um, now it’s, it’s become a part and parcel of everything in the Church. But I want to really, I wanna caution us from seeing this as just the latest buzzword. Yeah. This is not just what we have or what we do, but it’s how we should live and Pope Francis said something really beautiful on that. He said, you know, “We are not people who have a mission. We are people who are a mission.” And I think that’s critical for us in being able to walk out this paradigm in the world with our family and our friends who might be like, you know, what’s going on? What’s new, what’s different today? Um, so that would be my caution there.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah, and I mean, there’s so much we could say about it. Um, you know, working at the parish, I felt like it was so hard just to get people to understand that they’re supposed to be, you know, this phrase from Sherry Weddell, intentional disciples. Like, it was so hard just getting people to understand that they could have a personal relationship with Jesus, that they could be in that school of discipleship with him daily. And then, uh, I was very excited about missionary discipleship, but it seemed like, oh my gosh, now there’s this other thing that we’re having to like, incorporate. How, how do you, how do you tell people, like let’s say people who have had a reawakening this like conversion, like personal relationship with Jesus. How do you help them go from that to then now adding missionary, this word missionary to this discipleship, this idea?

Julianne Stanz: You know, I kind of, I say this a lot and I guess it’s like a tagline that I say a lot and become kind of, you know, we start with Jesus, what he did and what he asked us to do. And I believe that this is so critical for us as a Church because, you know, when you talk about the reality of speaking the Gospel to maybe for me it would be my brother who’s not practicing his faith, um, or neighbors. You write these, this is a context in which we walk our faith out into the world where it’s not received often. Um, so I think about going back to that core Gospel message, and you think about good news that people have, right? So, you know, I often start with what good news do you have? And people will perk up and say, oh, my sister got engaged, my grandson just passed his bar exam, whatever it is, right? And they light up and they start exchanging. And I often say to Catholics, you hear good news every single time you go to Mass, the Gospel of the Lord. And how do you respond? And then there’s all of this mumbling, like, “Praise you Lord Jesus Christ.” And I say in that tone of voice, who do you know, exchanges good news. Like, oh, great, engaged, wonderful. Nobody responds to good news like that. So first of all, start the new evangelization begins, my bishop, Bishop David Ricken is famous for saying that the mission happens between your own two, two ears and translating that into your heart, and then your hands and your feet to be able to get out and share. And so I often start there with Catholics to say, if this is good news, then what does that good news look like to you? You know, let’s, let’s really talk about what this concretely means. And to hear someone, I was just at an event recently where someone, um, said, I’ll tell you my good news. I have been an addict for my entire life. I will always be one, but I gave my heart, my life over to Jesus. And with time and good care and medical attention, I have been able to turn my life around. So Jesus has saved me from drowning in addiction. That’s what good news means to me. And just brought it down to kind of concrete reality. And for a lot of Catholics, maybe it’s not that traumatic, but it’s maybe Jesus got you through a health crisis. Jesus was the one who carried you through, you know, a grief or a loss or an illness. Start there, start with Jesus.

Edmund Mitchell: Hmm. That’s so great. It reminds me of, uh, we went on a mission trip. I was a youth minister. We went on a mission trip to Haiti with Life Teen. And I remember we got so prepared to go on mission, you know, there was extra praying and, you know, disciplines of prayer that we incorporated. We were praying for the people there. When we showed up, it was like, you know, we’re foreigners. We’re here and we’re kind of like open to spontaneity. We’re open to the Holy Spirit, you know, leading us to do different things. Or maybe today we’re gonna go visit these people and pray for these people. And at any moment someone might ask you to kind of talk about why you’re there and talk about Jesus and the Gospel. And um, you know, I remember being with people who, you know, someone was sick and was like, let’s just pray for them. They’re sick right now. Let’s pray for them. And we’re bringing food to people who are hungry. And I remember when I came back thinking like, man, I was so much more comfortable being that way there, but I’m a missionary here. Like, why don’t I put that much emphasis on my daily prayer routine and that I’m out in the world and that anything could happen with the Holy Spirit, you know, prompting and that I am a foreigner and a foreign land and that I am called to be a missionary here. You know exactly where I am. I don’t know if you’ve experienced that or, or talked to people about that, um,

Julianne Stanz: All the time. Yeah. And I’ll say to people, you know, I think this is such a beautiful example too, um, that you just shared because I think it tells you about the context in which we, our missioning being sent out often can create such cross pressures on us that we become quiet and silent. And I always say to Catholics, faith is personal. It’s not meant to be kept private. And in fact, this understanding of faith as private, is something that has really affected many Catholics. And so it’s like we don’t wear our heart on our sleeve. We don’t talk about politics, we don’t talk about money, we don’t talk about faith. And it’s like, no, we’re counting on you to talk about your faith. And so I think, you know, when you can recapture a sense of wonder and awe about the world that we live in today and the context you live in, then you realize there’s no accidents, right? You here, Edmund, are put here for a reason to reach your own family at this time in the life of the Church, no different than all the other saints of the Church. And so we always think, oh, you know, the lives of the saints have so much to teach us about sharing the faith. And they do. But we forget that they faced exactly the same challenges, hostility, judgment, indifference, um, all of that. And yet they persevered, right? Because that’s what we’re called to, we’re called to holiness. And perseverance always overcomes any resistance. And then the other thing I would say is, you know, when you look at the scriptures, the first thing that people give when God calls them is their limitation. Like, oh God, I couldn’t do this. This isn’t for me. Like Moses, Moses says, I’m not a speaker, Jeremiah, you know, I’m too young. Sarah’s like, I’m too old Mary. I mean, she gave so beautifully in her fiat, and yet you hear her say, but how can it be since I have not lane with a man, right? But God does not use our ability, he blesses our availability. So if you are listening to this and you’re like, okay, I am fired up by reading the Catechism. I’ve had an encounter with Jesus and I want to share that, give him your availability, “Lord, use me.” And then pray for the opportunity for him to use you in just very concrete ways. And you’ll start to see that that will happen and unfold around you.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. That’s so great. So why do you, why do you think you know, Pope Paul VI, there were these writings of beautiful church documents on evangelization. We have Redemptoris Missio on the missionary dimension of the Church. We have all these documents that really culminated in Evangelii Gaudium, which was so cool having used all those documents in training core members and catechists and evangelists like to see this document put out by the Church that really like encompassed all of these documents on evangelization, catechesis the missionary dimension of the Church. Why do you think it was that the Church decided in, in this time to place this special emphasis on missionary discipleship and use that phrase so often in this, in this Church document?

Julianne Stanz: Yeah, and this is a great question cuz I think it’s the crux of the issue around why we have a new Catechism that was just released, the new Directory for Catechesis in July of 2020. And you know, that followed seven years off of Evangelii Gaudium. I think there’s an understanding that a lot of our Catholics have received the sacraments but are not well evangelized or not well catechized. And so evangelization and catechesis go together like hand and glove. But you cannot, I think sometimes if there’s a tendency to say, if only we did this and these people understand that, then everything else would be better. And I think it misses context in which people live or we have to say, you know, how are we not just inviting people in, but how are we going out again, that missionary dimension to encounter people and invite them to this encounter? And so I think the two work really, really nicely together. And I think when you look at, you know, the Catechism of the Church, the Directory for Catechesis and Evangelii Gaudium, there’s very similar themes. Witness of life is primacy, has primacy in the missionary discipleship process. So we have to share our story, we have to pray with people, we have to expect that God’s signs and wonders and miracles are happening all around us. And to help people become attuned to how God is already working in their life, right? So Catechism talks really powerfully about that. I think we live in a culture today where we are filling the longings in our heart with a lot, right? So a lot of things we shouldn’t be. And I think you see this in social media, you hear about death by despair and how, you know, we have a crisis of mental health and all of these things. And then you read the opening words of the Catechism, which, you know, our hearts restless Lord until they rest in you. And you read those opening words and that whole first section about God put this longing in our hearts for him and what are we doing with that longing today? So I think there’s some great synergy happening. And I think if you’re listening to this and you’re like, okay, you guys sound really excited about this, but I’m here in my house and I have to think about like talking to my neighbor. I would say, yeah, first of all, recognize this is a time of great abundance and encouragement. We have more resources than we’ve ever had before to do this work. And, um, and that tells you that the Lord is blessing this time. So don’t be afraid, you know?

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And I think it’s so, you know, if people are listening and it’s like, wow, I don’t know how this all kind of connects and relates, I, you know, I want to just highlight again what you said earlier, that evangelization and catechesis are not at odds. And one of the things I really wanted to bring up with you is that when the Church published the Catechism, they put out an Informative Dossier, is that how you say it? Dossier?

Julianne Stanz: Dossier

Edmund Mitchell: They put out an Informative Dossier, which they gave to all the bishops, which is just a real quick, like, here’s what the Catechisms about, here’s how it was, um, compiled and put together. And it mentions, uh, the dimensions of the catechism. It says there’s two dimensions of the catechism, and the first one is that it’s conciliary, meaning that it is in line with all the Church documents and the councils leading up to this. Um, but the second one, I think a lot of people would find surprising. The second of two dimensions that it picked was missionary. The Catechism has a missionary dimension. And I just think that’s so interesting. Like most people wouldn’t think, oh, if the Church had to tell you the two dimensions of the Catechism, what would it be? And conciliator and missionary would not be, conciliary, I might pick, but missionary I’d be like, wow, what a Catechism, a summary of everything we believe. I wonder, I wonder what you make of that. Like, there’s plenty of things I could say about it, but like what do you, what do you think about that?

Julianne Stanz: You know, the first thing that popped into my head was reflecting this is, I mean, this is just how my Irish brain works, but the first thing I talked about, I think about is, you know, the paradox of the cross, right? That we are saved, you know, in the person of Jesus Christ. The, just the ultimate paradox of the cross and the life of Saint Therese of Lisueux came to mind. And I’ll tell you why, because she never left her convent. And when I went to France, you know, the sisters would talk about Saint Therese as the Patron Saint of the Missions, right? … of the missionaries. And yet she never left her convent. And it’s this idea that, um, by virtue of holiness, the word of God can walk out in the world anywhere that it needs to. And um, and I talk to my children about this a lot. I often say to them, you know, when you receive the Eucharist, you become a tabernacle with feet. And then you move the presence of Jesus out into the world. And I think to look at the catechism as a book would be a mistake, but to see it as a treasury from a retreat, to see it as um, an intellectual challenge as evangelization technique, as an understanding of an accompaniment to the discipleship process, like to really see it as this kind of treasure trove that you can dip in and out of. That’s I think why it’s supposed to be missionary. Cuz it’s not designed, it’s not designed just for Catholics. In fact, it’s designed for the whole world, right. We’ve gotta Yeah. We’ve gotta share Jesus with the whole world.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. It reminds me of, uh, in a, in a other episode we were talking about Jesus in the Catechism, and Dr. Petroc gave this beautiful example where he’s like, you know, he, he’s basically sharing that the Catechism lays this out for you. That the Catechism is laying out these doctrines for belief that are, um, supposed to introduce you to the person of Jesus. And that it’s, it’s, it’s by nature meant to be shared with other people. And I think, you know, o often people go and read theology books or read these things because they, they just want to know these things, but are a little timid to share it with other people. But it’s like, if this is someone you love, like it, it should be very natural for you to just go, wow. Like, I learned this thing about God, about Jesus. This is so wonderful. Like, I wanna share this with you.

Julianne Stanz: Oh, you know, I talked, when I, when I like do evangelization bootcamper classes, um, I talk about this insight too, which I really, um, respect from Petroc Wiley. He’s such a great guy. We’ve talked about this too. People evangelize to whatever they’re passionate about.. I’m in Green Bay, and let me tell you, they are passionate about the Packers here. And that manifests itself in all kinds of ways. People wear the gear, they prioritize their time, people sign their children up for season tickets when the baby is not even born. Right. So they’re evangelizing to their love of the Packers. Think about, you know, whether it’s makeup or cooking gear or whatever. People find a way to share what they’re passionate about, right. Evangelization is about communicating the good news of what has touched our lives. And there’s a particular point in the Catechism that really speaks to what you said, Edmund, which is that the Catechism is about communicating a person. And my favorite quote, I mean, I have lots of favorite quotes, but one of them is like the definitive aim of catechesis is to promote intimacy with Jesus Christ. I mean, that’s what it’s about. Right? And yes, we want people to have knowledge and understanding and, and you know, have all of this information, but we need to put people in intimate touch with Jesus Christ, not just have peripheral knowledge, but to have that intimacy with Jesus. And so I think about, you know, when you said earlier the two kind of wraparound pieces of the Catechism are conciliarity and then this missionary dimension, you know, it speaks to that we want to bring people into communion with the person that has changed and touched our hearts. And then we want people to be sent out to share the fruit of that encounter with others. And that’s, I think the sweet spot for us as Catholics is to recognize we can do this in very, very simple ways, you know?

Edmund Mitchell: What has been your experience of the Catechism, maybe in your life or in your ministry, or you trying to be a missionary disciple? And then how, how would you encourage others to, to look at it maybe differently if they are hearing this call to be a missionary disciple? Um, what, what do they make of the Catechism?

Julianne Stanz: Yeah. I, so I, um, went to study theology in Ireland after having this kind of life-changing encounter with St. Patrick on the top of Ireland’s holiest Mountain. It’s a place called Cro Patrick. And it really was the seed for me of trying to get close to who St. Patrick was closest to, which was Jesus. Right. And so, um, I ended up going to Dublin and I grew up in a home and I don’t ever remember seeing a Bible in our house. I I don’t ever remember my parents reading it. And then, you know, day one of class you’re given two texts, Bible and Catechism. And I remember going up and down on the train or the bus to Dublin as a student and like making my way through this document. And, you know, I’ll, I’ll be honest, at first, my, my making my way through the Catechism was very much tied to I need to know information to be able to speak about it on the test.And then as I was reading it, something changed in me. I, I realized it was not just a collection of organized truths, which it is, but it’s so much more than that. And I started to interact with it. And so, um, whether I was teaching high school students or middle school, I would have the Catechism and the Compendium. Mm. And so that’s why I love Real+True because to me, you know, when I was approached a couple of years ago to say, Hey, can you be an advisor behind the scenes to kind of bring the Catechism to life? I was like, yes. Because I was thinking about myself as that 17 year old student going up on the train to Dublin. If I could have listened to something to have brought the Catechism alive, if I could have interacted with the video, I wonder how that would’ve changed and deepened my appreciation of a text that quite frankly had to grow with me for 20 years mm-hmm. And it should, it should grow like that, but it also should to kind of come alive in your imagination too. And so I think it’s indispensable reading. I also say to people, don’t be intimidated. You could dip in and out of it. Yeah. And you, and you should dip in and, and out of it too. People look at it and they go, oh, big document. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, it’s big because our God is huge and there’s so much he wants to communicate to us.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. That’s great advice. I, I’ve often heard, and I think this is great too, is, you know, just start on the fourth pillar on prayer because it’s so practical. Beautiful. It talks about prayer. Um, and once you kind of start dipping into dipping your toes into the fourth pillar, then you’re like, okay, I can, I think I can kind of, you start becoming more accustomed to the language it uses and how it speaks about these things. And also that it’s meant, like you said, in small chunks. Like it’s really hard to just read it cover to cover really quickly. It’s really almost, I feel like it’s set up to be meditated on to be really like slowly read.

Julianne Stanz: Yeah, I agree. I often tell people that, start with that prayer component too, and you’ll get the most beautiful definitions of prayer. Like, prayer is God’s self communication to us. Yeah. Prayer is how God speaks to us, you know? Yeah. And I just love that because I think then you can work into various areas. It is deep, it’s very rich, it is challenging. And I would say too, um, the United States Catholic Catechism for adults, the, what we call the USCCA was designed to kind of break it open in a very popular way for any adult. Start with that prayer dimension. And then if you don’t have a USCCA, that’s a great text to have too.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. Yeah. So what’s, maybe as we are wrapping up the episode, um, maybe something practical. What is the most common mistake you see people make when they first are starting out on this journey of evangelization? They’re getting really excited, passionate, um, and they want to share Jesus with other people. What’s like a common mistake that people make and what, what would be some advice that you would give people that are like wanting to answer this call to be missionary?

Julianne Stanz: Yeah, I, that’s a great question. And I, you know, there’s so many different ways cuz I’ve made so many mistakes over the years myself when looking at this. I remember once I recognized that, you know, when we were doing these evangelization trainings and we would send out people, they would get very excited and very verbal…

Edmund Mitchell: That was me.

Julianne Stanz: That was me. That was me. Yeah. And it was like, okay, someone asked this question and instead of like giving them a teaspoon of information, like it’s like a fire hose of like, lemme tell you about Jesus and blah blah. And then like scared off the person. And I often describe, you know, when you’re excited about Jesus, you wanna tell everybody, but recognize too that we need to find our E-LEGs. I call this e legs because I make the analogy sometimes like going from, you know, maybe prec-onversion or like having your eyes opened up to this conversation to life anew. Um, it, you are trying to find your equilibrium. And evangelization is often about that. It’s recognizing the person in front of you is not somebody that is half full that you need to fill up with information. But God already dwells in the person’s heart because he always precedes us.

Julianne Stanz: That’s what the catechism tells us. Yeah. So to recognize the gift of the person and that there, you know, to get, get your equilibrium going from like the sea to land, that’s gonna be a wobbly, it’s wobbly for a while, but there’s a balance there between you want to share, but you also have to listen and receive because that person is a gift and has received much from the Lord that you also need to pay attention to. So I think sometimes I, I see very zealous evangelism going out and be like, let me tell you all the things. Let me teach you all the things. And it’s like, let’s just start and listen to where you saw God today. Or did you see God today? Or tell me about this God who’s speaking to you, or maybe not. That’s a different conversation.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. It’s almost like stirring up that curiosity. I was the same way. I just wanted to talk, I wanted to answer questions No one was asking, I just wanted to like go get, regurgitate books that I had read and no one wanted to know. And that’s one of the things, you know, I’d encourage people to check out Real+True the Proclamation videos. Like the Proclamation videos are, we we like design them to start conversations so that hopefully you have the other person asking you, so what does the Church teach about the soul? Or what do we believe, you know, instead of you having to come right in and say, today we’re talking about the Eucharist. Like you’re talking about things in the world and having a natural curiosity and waiting for the person that you’re speaking with to finally get to some of those spiritual questions.

Julianne Stanz: Yeah. And I love those Proclamation videos. I don’t put a little plug in. I was just working with a group of high school students and I had shared on the Proclamation videos and, you know, it was around the Eucharist and kind of, you know, starting with the Eucharist as Thanksgiving. And getting them to say what they’re thankful for. And then leaning into that conversation, I had gone in with a very determined lesson plan. And that whole conversation became shaped by what they were interacting with. You know, in the Proclamation video, but what they were hearing from each other. And to me that is what evangelization is about. It’s about interacting with the core teachings of our faith, uh, in communion with one another. But, um, and, and that changes us. It changes, it changes us. And I, I think there’s something so beautiful in that.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. Well, thanks Julianne. This has been a great conversation. I encourage people to go check out some of the documents we talked about, but also Julianne, are there any other places you’d like to direct people or point people maybe for your books or anywhere else?

Julianne Stanz: Well, you know, I am Irish and St. Patrick’s Day is coming off, and if you’re listening to this either after or before, um, but you’re interested in a little bit of the Irish prayer traditions I grew up with, particularly around the early Christian Saints, you can find me at juliannestanz.com. Um, or you can find my books online at Loyola Press.

Edmund Mitchell: Awesome. Thank you so much Julianne for being here and thanks for the conversation.

Julianne Stanz: You’re welcome. I’ll leave you an Irish blessing [inaudible] which is goodbye and God bless.

Edmund Mitchell: That’s beautiful. Thank you. Well, everyone, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Um, as usual, you can go to realtrue.org/podcast to check out the podcast. You can follow us on Real+True. We really believe at Real+True that the Catechism is more than just a textbook. It’s a living echo of a God who desires to reveal himself to us. And you can join our mission, join in supporting Real+True and helping unlock the Catechism for the world, by going to realtrue.org. And we look forward to seeing you in the next episode.