Video Transcript

Edmund Mitchell: Hi everyone, and welcome back to The Real and True Podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts, Edmond Mitchell.

Emily Mentock: And I’m your other co-host, Emily Mentock.

Edmund Mitchell: And today we are going through the fourth pillar on prayer. We have been walking through the Lord’s Prayer, and now we are on the petition “Thy will be done.” And so we’re going to be talking a little bit about ministry and kind of teaching and talking about “Thy will be done,” especially in the reality and the context of people experiencing suffering. 

So Emily, I know that we’re both excited about this conversation because there’s a lot to unpack and there’s so much practical application for this petition in particular.

Emily Mentock: Yes. This touches so many areas of ministry—like you said—and we’re moving through it. So we began moving through this prayer. So we began “Our Father who art in heaven,” and then “Hallowed be thy name.” And during that conversation, we talked about how important it was that we’re praying that God’s name be hallowed in us and by us through our life. And now we are going to this next part of the prayer, “Thy will be done; on earth as it is in heaven,” which shows an abandonment to our own wills so that God’s name can be hallowed by us and in us. 

And what we’re really seeing in this petition is that God is inviting us to know and love His will for our lives and the lives of others. And I think one of the reasons why we see this is so important in so many areas of ministry is because it talks about our own call to ministry, the things we’re doing in our own lives in ministry; you’re walking and accompanying with people, and of course their path to holiness looks like following God’s plan for their lives. You get to witness God’s plan for other people. 

And then of course, the problem of suffering. How many of our ministries around our parish is dedicated to trying to address the sufferings of people in our communities, whether they’re sick, needy, families who are going through grief, whoever it is? And so I think this is something that I think all ministers and catechists should spend more time thinking through “What are we actually praying for in this prayer, and how can we connect our ministry work back to this part of the Lord’s Prayer?”

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And I want to remind people that are listening that the Catechism is a summary of the deposit of faith. It’s this document that is summarizing everything God wanted to reveal to us. And we have these four pillars: the Creed, Sacraments and Liturgy (which is the second one), Morality or Life in Christ (which is the third), and Prayer. But all four of these pillars they cross-reference each other. They’re an organic whole. 

And throughout every pillar, it’s really important for us to keep in mind our definition of the human person because it’s us. It’s people that are trying to live this life in Christ and believe God’s plan for our life and His revelation. And so there are these words that pop up a lot that sometimes we don’t take time to stop and reflect on words like “intellect” we might feel more comfortable with. 

But I wonder if you think people ever really stop to think about this word, “will?” And I wonder what you think about how many ministers maybe use that word, or they might say “free will” or “God’s will,” but don’t ever stop to maybe explain it? Yeah, I don’t know. Do you feel like most people understand that word or even know what it is we mean when we’re saying “someone’s will?”

Emily Mentock: I love that you are bringing up this point because this is something that I have even been wrestling with in my own life going through a particular discernment for something in my life. And I had to reach out and kind of reengage in spiritual direction because I thought that I had totally exhausted trying to do God’s will in my life. 

And I thought, “Oh my gosh, I’ve tried to find God’s will for my life. I’ve prayed all the novenas; I’ve done all these things thinking that God’s will”—which I had never spent much time thinking about exactly what that meant—”was just God’s plan for my life.” And then I had actually a very good friend remind me that I’ve been given the gift of free will.

And what does that mean? That means in my pursuit of doing God’s will, I still need to choose! So if we go to what the Catechism has given to us as sort of this beautiful image and demonstration of “Thy will be done,” and actually where those words come from: Jesus’ Agony in the Garden. Jesus says, “Okay, Father. This is what I want. I want this to pass for me.” He expresses His desire, which is an important part of our relationship with God. But then ultimately what He chooses is, “But God, I know this is why I have been sent. Father, I know this is why I have been sent. So your will be done, not mine.” So when we say “Thy will be done, God,”  it means “I will do what you are asking of me,” not just,”I will want what you want of me.”

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. This all goes back to the first paragraph of the Catechism. It goes back to the Trinity. I mean, God created us with these unique powers or capabilities that’s our intellect and our will; our intellect to know and our will to choose. And that’s why people who remember the Catechism from the Council of Trent, it’s like, “we’re created to know, love, and serve God in this life and the next.”

So the knowing Him is our intellect that we use for that. And the loving and serving is the choosing we choose through our will. But it’s interesting too, because I think a lot of people don’t realize that it’s not just or limited to an action because God wills our good at all times. An example that comes to mind is we might have desires for meat on Fridays during Lent, but we don’t choose to eat meat.

Emily Mentock: Right.

Edmund Mitchell: This is where sometimes the English language can kind of fall short. We do sometimes say, “I have this desire to do this thing, and I haven’t done it yet.” But you also have desires; natural desires that you choose not to entertain, or you don’t make a choice. So if you could also imagine, let’s say if you’re stopped from doing; if you’re hindered from doing something you really want or desire to do. 

Let’s say you’re in jail, and Nelson Mandela, right? He wants to go serve his people, but he’s stopped from doing it. Well, he’s willing—even though he isn’t acting it out yet—he is willing with his whole being to go serve his people, he’s being hindered from that. So it’s really important. 

That’s a really important thing that we’re trying to discern God’s will for our lives, and we can look at things that happen in our lives. We can look at His teaching. We can look and discern all these things, but God has this will that is unending; that’s eternal, and He has a will for our lives. And I think it’s really important in this conversation about praying for God’s will to be done.

Emily Mentock: Right. God has His will, but God has also given us free will. So God—even though He is an omnipotent God—He does not interfere with our free will here on earth. Maybe through grace, He might send us a sign or wonder—something like that—or answer us in prayer, but He gives all of us free will. 

So, we’re going to talk in this episode about the problem then of evil and suffering, and how does that come about in the world? Yes, through the disorder of the Fall, but also often through our own choices; when we don’t choose something that aligns with God’s will. So our free will is what also brings about good and evil into the world, as we’ve learned through the Lord’s Prayer. “Hallowed Be thy name” (by us and through us), “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” (by us and through us).

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And in my experience, these are the two things that come up when you start talking about God’s will or start teaching or helping people understand that God wills our ultimate, eternal goodness. The two things that come up is, “Well, God wouldn’t want me to suffer,” which is true. And then also, “Well, if He wills our goodness, why does evil exist?” 

And so the first one really simply is like, “Yeah, God does will your ultimate happiness, but that doesn’t mean an absence of suffering. And He doesn’t will the suffering, He allows the suffering.” And then the second one is talking through the reality of evil and suffering in the world. Again, that’s not willed by God, but it’s something we have to acknowledge. 

And we can’t shy away from acknowledging that there is intense evil and suffering in the world, and that it does sometimes make it difficult to believe in a good God. That is normal and good for us to have that thought. Like, “How can I trust that this good God exists if I’m experiencing so much suffering, or if other people are experiencing so much suffering?”

Emily Mentock: You’re right. That is still a major crisis that people have in their faith at times. Even very faithful people then something very terrible can happen in their lives—like a loved one gets very sick or passes away—and they might say, “Why, God? Why have you abandoned me? Why is this happening to me?” There’s many stories of saints, from people in the Bible; Jesus Himself, calling out to His Father on the Cross asking this question. 

And I think it’s something that, again, we’re very likely to encounter in ministry as we’re teaching the faith. It’s a natural question that people have. So Edmund, how would you answer that question to people? They say, “Okay, what answer also does the Catechism give us for why then is there evil in the world?” And “How can I reconcile the evil and suffering that I see in the world or experience in my life with who God has revealed Himself to be, which is fully good?”

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I think it’s important just again to acknowledge the evil and the suffering, and to not shy away from saying “It is awful that there is evil and suffering in the world.” And I think to even acknowledge—I’m pretty sure it is Saint Thomas Aquinas who said—”Of all the arguments against God’s existence, the argument from suffering; the existence of suffering, is one of the strongest.”

Even the saint said that. And to also acknowledge—like you said—even Jesus is voicing that human feeling of “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” Now there’s more to this Psalm that He’s quoting, which is this hope that God is willing His goodness and His plan, and He hopes in this bigger plan. And really, it’s not “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Period. That’s it.” Really, it’s “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me in light of the plan you have for my life? I don’t yet understand the full plan, or I have not yet seen.”

Emily Mentock: It’s personal, it feels very personal.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. So the first thing would be to acknowledge the suffering and the evil. And then the second thing, it does all go back to will. So God created us with free will, which means we can choose between good and evil. We can choose goodness and to choose in line with the plan for our lives that God has, and we can choose evil. 

And so through that gift of free will, sin entered the world. You have to say this kind of delicately, but it really is our fault that sin is in the world. And when I was younger, I would get caught up in all of these YouTube videos and things about atheist versus Christian debates, and Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens in particular are very, very aggressive, cutting critics of the belief in God from the position of suffering. And I remember sometimes just realizing, “Man, God feels this way too.”

Emily Mentock: Yeah.

Edmund Mitchell: God is like, “Why is there suffering in the world? I did not want this.” But He can bring about goodness even through our disobedience. And that’s the Gospel message; that He planned to do something about it, and accounted for our disobedience. And it was worth it to Him to give us the gift of free will, which is such a huge, huge gift.

Emily Mentock: Yes. I love that you said that it was worth it to Him because what we’re praying in the Lord’s Prayer “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven,” if God’s will was actually done on earth as it is in heaven, there would be no suffering.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah.

Emily Mentock: There’s no suffering in heaven. People there are fully in union with God, and therefore there is no more suffering. And you no longer need hope because you’re already there fully. 

And so I think that when we’re praying “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven,” we are praying that we bring an end to suffering in the world because there’s no suffering in heaven; to have good overcome evil in the world because that’s how it is in heaven. And we don’t do that perfectly because we’re human, but God gives us the free will to pray that. And in that prayer, we’re asking for the grace to do that. 

I do want to be able to give people a bit of a practical answer to this. And so I think you mentioned the Catechism itself is cross referential, right? And so I think that if we’re encountering this question—and it’s coming up for us because we’re now in the pillar in prayer—let’s go back to the first pillar and maybe highlight some of the quotes from the Catechism relevant to this topic that answers the question about God’s providence and the scandal of evil in the world. 

So the Catechism asks the question itself, paragraph 309: “If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? And to this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice.” 

I love the practicality of the Catechism, again acknowledging “No quick answer will suffice.”  So if you want to go back to some of these sections, starting with paragraph 309, and it goes—I think to about 314; maybe five or so paragraphs in the Catechism—that will give catechists and all people working in ministry trying to hand on our faith to people who are asking these valid and difficult questions. 

The Catechism does give us the answer to be able to still preach the Gospel and the Good News and help people know Jesus through the love of God and what He’s revealed, while appropriately addressing this answer that naturally all humans will have.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I love the realness of paragraph 309 where it just acknowledges “To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice.”  It’s so true because I have experienced—or I’ve heard from people who have felt hurt by the Church—and again, it’s because they felt like the evil and the suffering wasn’t seen or acknowledged enough. 

And people used shorthand phrases that while true, can sometimes feel dismissive. Like “Well, God works in mysterious ways.” And it’s like, “Okay.”

Emily Mentock: I once had a priest tell me, “Well, maybe that’s just your cost in life.” Which again—I don’t want to say that’s objectively untrue— but to dismiss some suffering in my life like, “Well maybe that’s just how God’s going to get you to heaven.” It did feel very dismissive and very discouraging to me.

 And I had to keep working through that and praying through that and almost kind of relearn—because it was kind of a damaging comment—relearn that God does will our ultimate happiness. 

And yes, there will be suffering along the way, and sometimes God even calls us to participate in that redemptive suffering that Jesus experienced on the Cross and to unite our suffering to His suffering on the Cross. But there’s no world in which God wants us to just experience the evil of the world. God doesn’t want that for us.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I remember hearing someone mentioning that there was a story that was getting passed around of some type of farmer who found these young baby birds in some shed. And it was the middle of winter, and he was trying to coax these birds out of the shed, and the birds were just getting colder and colder, and he couldn’t get these birds; couldn’t get them towards the door to get them out of the shed.

 It’s one of these magical fables where there was some ability for the farmer became a bird and then went into the shed and led the birds out. And I remember someone mentioning and critiquing the story and saying it’s important not to skip over the reality of the Gospel and the amount of time that God spent with us in the suffering like that.

Yes, in a way, the farmer becomes a bird and then leads us out to the warmth of heaven. But Jesus became a man and stayed in there with us. And you think about—what is it?— Brené Brown talks a lot about empathy and compassion.

Emily Mentock: Yeah.

Edmund Mitchell: And there’s this image that was going around about the difference between sympathy and empathy. And sympathy is you’re looking down in a hole at someone who’s suffering, and sympathy is being outside the hole and going “Oh, that’s so sad.”

Emily Mentock: I think that is a Brené Brown thing.

Edmund Mitchell: Can you explain it? Do you know what I’m talking about?

Emily Mentock: I have heard that before. Yes. I don’t know if I could explain it better than that; the hole.

Edmund Mitchell: So, empathy is actually getting into the hole with another person and going, “I’m here in this with you, and I’m going to try to experience some of this with you. I’m going to take on this experience.” And that’s really what Jesus does. He experienced the suffering. He didn’t just quick fix it, you know?

Emily Mentock: Yes. I love that. I don’t know if this is relevant to our conversation but I’m going to bring it up.

Edmund Mitchell: Okay. Great. Go for it.

Emily Mentock: What you were saying about Jesus staying with us in that, and that is compassion; that Passion together. It’s making me think of—I listened to a podcast recently where a therapist was explaining about how to deal with people who are emotionally immature. And the interviewer was excellent and saying, “Well, what about compassion for these people?” 

Because the therapist was sort of advocating that you cut them out of your life; just accept that this is who they are, you’re never going to fix them, cut them out of your life. And then the interviewer,—rightly so—I think was saying, “Well, what about compassion?”

And the therapist didn’t agree and she was just like, “That’s only how you get burned again.” And I could not disagree more. I feel there’s more truth in compassion because it helps you see that other person also in their suffering. Yes, it hurts in a way because you’re suffering with them. Or maybe you’re going to put yourself in that place of vulnerability where you might get hurt again, but that compassion is so important to the truth because otherwise you are not seeing fully what that other person is going through. And you’re not experiencing fully how it’s impacting you to just get out and run away and not experience that. 

And I think I just love that example of Jesus came and suffered with us in the most compassionate way, and sort of climaxing with His actual Passion. We’re recording this during Holy Week, and so we’re preparing to enter into Christ’s Passion with Him.

Edmund Mitchell: I love that co-Passion with someone, and to be in the Passion with someone. And again, I know this sometimes sounds like our generations are so obsessed with therapy, but a lot of this comes down to best practices and things that people talk about a lot in these therapy conversations. 

One of the things often—to bring it back to ministry—I think the reason why people give short answers is because they’re afraid if they let themselves fully experience; they’re afraid if they take on some of the emotion this other person takes or is experiencing, that their faith would be rocked. And so it’s this fear of “If I let myself feel how you’re feeling, I might not still believe in God as well.”

Emily Mentock: “If I face the problem, will I also have this question or crisis?”

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And so I think in so much of this—I put in the notes; this was really moving for me—looking up the therapist Carl Rogers, and there’s some YouTube videos you can find. I don’t know if we mentioned this on the podcast before, but he’s doing therapy with people. And then another example of what I’m about to bring up is there’s a showtime therapy show. 

It’s like Couples Therapy, and there’s this phenomenal therapist who just is very kind and compassionate and listens really well, but both of them have what Carl Rogers calls “unconditional positive regard.” And it’s this idea that unconditionally I’m going to have positive regard for this person no matter what they disclose; no matter what they say. 

So meaning “I’m not going to be threatened by allowing myself to feel or understand what this person’s feeling.”

Edmund Mitchell: So even if it seems wild to us; even if it is objectively immoral and wrong, there’s still a way for us to not be threatened by placing ourself in a position of, “Hey, for you, this feels this way. And we can get to the moral things later, but right now I want you to feel like I understand that you feel this way.”

Emily Mentock: Yes.

Edmund Mitchell: And I think that’s so helpful even in ministry; there’s been many times where it’s helped me a lot.

Emily Mentock: Wow. I think that is so beautiful. And then taking it back again to that’s what God did for us when He came and suffered in our broken humanity. Jesus—Rightly so—was scared to suffer through His humanity on the Cross. That terrible, terrible thing, He knew it was going to happen. That’s why he is praying in agony saying, “Oh my gosh, if there’s any other way, let this pass from me.”

But, still overcame that by ultimately choosing and trusting in God that this would be the ultimate good, and was willing to take on all that suffering. Yeah. So I think that the Catechism gives a beautiful quote for this: paragraph 2825. It says, “Although he was a Son, [Jesus] learned obedience through what he suffered. How much more reason have we as sinful creatures to learn obedience—we who in him have become children of adoption. We ask our Father to unite our will to his Son’s, in order to fulfill his will, his plan of salvation for the life of the world. We are radically incapable of this.” 

Again, the Catechism keeps it so real. “We are radically incapable of this, but united with Jesus and with the power of his Holy Spirit, we can surrender our will to him and decide to choose what his Son has always chosen: to do what is pleasing to the Father.”

I just think that is so powerful where we—in the face of suffering in our own lives; in the face of suffering in the world and seeing other people suffer in front of us–we can unite our will to God’s will. And why do we want to do that? Because we trust that God’s plan, it will bring about our salvation. God’s will and plan for our lives is for us to be in heaven with Him. Jesus trusted in that through the Agony in the Garden, and then there was victory over sin and death.

Edmund Mitchell: Have you seen the movie The Adjustment Bureau with Matt Damon?

Emily Mentock: I have not; I have not seen that movie.

Edmund Mitchell: So it’s with Matt Damon—and I forget the female lead. Oh, Emily Blunt. So these two people meet, and then there’s these mysterious CIA/FBI-type characters that appear and have all these powers. And basically—not to spoil it— but they’re kind of angels in a way. And all of these little decisions–they have this notebook—and all these little decisions affect the plan longer down the line; years down the line. 

And so little things like where someone goes for coffee as opposed to some other place, it affects the plan. And so they’re constantly talking about “There is this big plan, and these little decisions have huge consequences later down the line.”

I walked away from that movie being reminded that so often I think I understand all of the plan, and that we have to remember and stay humble that God’s plan is not just in a trite way, big and mysterious. No, actually, God’s plan is huge. We can’t fully understand God’s plan for our lives until we’re in heaven.

Emily Mentock: That is the mystery part.

Edmund Mitchell: Yes.

Emily Mentock: The same way we will never fully comprehend the Trinity, we will never fully understand God’s plan for our lives during our time on earth.

Edmund Mitchell: And so we can say these seemingly contradictory things; they are both true at the same time. One is “God did not want you to experience suffering and evil.” That was not part of God’s plan in the sense that He willed it, but He has made it part of the plan. 

So that’s true as well; that this suffering—when united to Jesus—can have spiritual significance. And like you said in that Catechism paragraph, Jesus shows how to be obedient to God’s plan even in the face of suffering.

Emily Mentock: Yes. I love that. And so that gives us another paragraph—306—where we’re talking about how we have been invited into this participation. It says “God is a sovereign master of his plan.” He’s the only one who knows it. “But to carry it out, he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness [on God’s part], but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.”

So for me, this takes me back to what I was saying earlier. In this process of discernment, I sort of had to relearn my own choice and cooperation. So I thought that I was totally abandoning myself to God’s will by saying, “Okay, God. I’m detaching from all the things. I don’t want anything. You just tell me, and then I’ll go do it.” 

And then I had to be reminded that no, actually, God doesn’t want me to be a passive receiver. He wants me to be a receiver of His grace, but an active one. He wants my active participation and cooperation in the plan. So actually, the gift of my free will is to then try and actively choose God’s will and God’s plan for my life.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I love the last sentence in that paragraph, “cooperating in the accomplishment of His plan.” Because I think we might read this and think—there’s two extremes. We can not be on one extreme where we say, “Well, these decisions are too small to matter. God isn’t interested in me and what I choose in these small decisions.” And then on the other hand, we could be paralyzed by the thought of “We have to cooperate in God’s plan. There’s two options. I better choose the one that accomplishes His plan.”

 But the reality is God’s plan will get accomplished. You can’t choose anything. What you can choose to separate yourself from God, but God’s plan for your life will be accomplished. And we can pray to cooperate better in that plan.

But we have to find a balance between “Well, this decision’s too small” and the opposite where you’re frozen in fear and can’t make a decision. “Should I get married or should I join a convent? I have to have such a clear sign from God.” And you get frozen and don’t use your free will.

Emily Mentock: Yes. One thing that I was hearing from my spiritual director and going through this process is that God probably isn’t going to give me a sign with a voice that comes down from heaven and says, “Do this.”

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah.

Emily Mentock: As much as I was ready for that because I was struggling with this so much, that’s not what’s going to happen. He for many years was the rector of a seminary. And so he talked about some of the guys who were going through that example that you just mentioned, “Should I be a priest? Should I enter religious life? Or should I get married?”

And they were paralyzed by that decision because they’d been in seminary for many years, but they hadn’t found peace with it. And maybe they were waiting for God to come and tell them or send a girl into their life that made it obvious that they were called to marriage, but instead they just weren’t finding peace.

And he was passing on to me some spiritual direction; some counseling that he gave to them of maybe you won’t find that peace until you are cooperating with God’s will. Now God may not choose for you, but don’t think for one second that you won’t have signs along the way through peace and joy and fulfillment and other good things happening in your life that you are cooperating and doing the right thing. 

And there also might be times, and we are called to as disciples—especially those who are leading or forming others—to be attentive to the things where maybe we don’t have peace or we feel unsettled. And if something’s coming up again, is that a sign that I maybe am not cooperating with God’s plan for my life? And there’s ways to do this better. So I think that that active part of the relationship and cooperating is so important. But you’re right. Don’t be afraid that you only can make the right decision because even when you make the wrong ones, God is always calling us back to His plan as well.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I love that advice. Instead of focusing on these two ultimate decisions, can you start taking steps towards a decision and then asking yourself, “Is peace coming as I take steps towards a decision to become a priest or to get married to someone?” There’s these little steps. I love that. 

Maybe we could start—I want to maybe give some more practical advice for ministry and maybe even if there’s any situations or stories that come up, but maybe we could talk a little bit about more about this. Which of these practical tips or any others do you feel like would be the most helpful?

Emily Mentock: One practical suggestion that I really love and as we were preparing the show notes—or the run-of-show for this podcast recording—is the Stations of the Cross. Again, we’re in Lent; we’re in Holy Week, so maybe this is just front of mind for me, but I think we have a natural inclination to be averse to suffering. That’s a good human survival instinct. God doesn’t will our suffering. We don’t need to will our suffering either. But, it’s going to happen in our lives. 

So one way that I think is so practical and applicable to any age group to help them understand “What is it like to suffer with Jesus and unite our suffering to Jesus?” The Stations of the Cross, or the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary, or understanding more about the lives of the martyrs or other saints who suffered but still found holiness in that I think helps us practice getting through our own suffering. 

The same way we also need to have examples of people who are living joyfully for the Lord. Because suffering will happen in our own lives, I think finding,—especially through those three things: Stations of the Cross, Sorrowful Mysteries, and the lives of the martyrs—is a great way to teach uniting our suffering to Jesus or to people who have lived in His name and suffered in His name.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And I’m also just thinking back on my experience of ministry and there’s been so many times where I think the way sometimes this comes up is either someone asks a question while you’re teaching on this topic. Or often what will happen is someone stays afterwards; after everyone’s gone and asks to speak to you. Or you get a phone call later or someone wants to share something. 

And often—especially when this first started happening— it was a little disorienting. So I understand that sometimes it could be hard to suddenly be hearing someone’s whole life story or just horrible situations they’ve been in. But I remember one time realizing the fact that someone decides to share intense suffering or bad things that have happened in their lives—and even if they’re antagonistic towards you or the Church or faith—the fact that they’re even sharing that with you, you should have like a reverence for the fact that someone’s even sharing it.

And it’s hard sometimes to do because at the beginning, I would get really defensive, like, “Man, this person’s trying to bolster this huge argument on why the Church doesn’t make sense or God doesn’t make sense.” But really trying to remind yourself and adopt a position of like, “This person could be at a concert somewhere. This person could be at the YMCA; this person doesn’t need to be here at Church sharing this with you right now. And they’re deciding to do that.” 

And so to have respect for that and then to remind yourself that people have a right to their feelings; people have a right to their feelings. That doesn’t mean you have to feel the same way, but everyone has a right to their feelings. And we shouldn’t rush so quickly into problem-solving people out of their feelings.

Emily Mentock: Yes. And remember that the Catechism has wisdom for this. It doesn’t just say that struggling with the problem of suffering, or struggling to trust God’s will for our lives is something that we’ll just have a light struggle with. It says we are radically incapable of uniting our will to Jesus; our will to God, or to accept His will for our lives. 

So I think that you’re right. When someone is even choosing to express it, they are wrestling with that. I’m thinking even of all the times in high school, I was the one staying after class opening up to my religion teacher about whatever problems I was having in life. And I’m so grateful for the ones who did respond with that compassion and listening and who had good answers that didn’t just stay shallow, but got at the depth of what God has revealed.

So I would say this is a good call-to-action; a good reminder for the catechists who are listening to this, to go back to those paragraphs of the Catechism that *do* address directly the problem of suffering and the problem of evil in our world, starting around paragraph 300; that part of the Catechism. 

And then also to re-familiarize yourself with this part of the Catechism about “How do we unite our will to the Lord’s and to God’s plan so that we can overcome the suffering that we’re going to encounter in this life?” And I think that being able to go deep in those answers is something you can do to honor whatever it is that people are bringing to you.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I think this is great. I really encourage people to go back through and read those paragraphs that Emily mentioned. And again, the spirituality of suffering, to try to prayerfully cultivate in people that you’re ministering to or evangelizing or catechizing to cultivate that spirituality of suffering. 

And then, one last thing would be—again, I think of a situation where I look back now, and I regret how I handled this—but a mom opened up about a sensitive situation she was in concerning her kids and her ex-husband and all this. And I just jumped to solving the problem. And later she had a meeting with me where she said that’s exactly her feedback to me. She said, “I felt like the Church didn’t care about my situation.”

And I was like “Well, I solved it.” And she said, “Yeah, but you didn’t take time to understand this.” And I kept saying—and I regret this—I kept saying, “Well, no. I understood the situation and I solved it.” And finally she just put her hand on my hand in my office and was like, “Yeah, but you didn’t take time to make me feel like you understood my situation.”

And I really regret that. And again, just a final word of encouragement that it really means a lot to people. And we do in a way in ministry—or even just out in the world—we represent Christ and the Church. We’re ambassadors for Christ, and we can’t skip over that step too quickly.

Emily Mentock: Yes. That is so important. So just as a recap of some of the things that we talked about that I think help us realize “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” for our own lives and our own prayer, but also for those that we are teaching to pray those words that God wants our ultimate happiness. That doesn’t mean that it’s a complete absence of suffering but it is a mystery. 

So it’s important to address—you’re saying—the struggle to reconcile God’s goodness with the reality of suffering. And God doesn’t glorify our pain, but Christ’s obedience on the Cross does give us a model of bringing about redemption through that. So that even when we’re suffering; even when we make mistakes, we can trust that God’s plan of salvation can still work through those and overcome those things.

And I think that maybe this is a good reminder for people—especially in parish ministry—to offer a study on suffering or offer a Bible study on the Book of Job or other things so that you yourself and others in the parish are better able to address these things that come up in our lives. And then also better able to sort of abandon ourselves to God’s will and bring about His will in our lives and in our communities more often.

So thank you so much for tuning in for this episode of The Real + True Podcast. We are—as always—on a mission to unlock the beauty and truth of the Catechism and help people all around the world and culture encounter its pulsating heart: Jesus Christ. You can find more episodes like this—especially as we’re moving through each word and line of the Our Father at realtrue.org. And subscribe to this podcast for future episodes. Thank you so much.