Proclamation
What is truth?

In this episode, Edmund Mitchell welcomes special guest Ryan O’Hara to dive into the Eighth Commandment.
(00:00) In the opening of the episode, co-host Edmund Mitchell and guest Ryan O’Hara explore the deeper meaning of the 8th Commandment, “You shall not bear false witness.” Ryan reflects on his ministry experience and emphasizes the transformative power of speech, truthfulness, and formation in living a life rooted in integrity.
(09:02) In this portion of the podcast, Edmund and Ryan explore the 8th Commandment’s connection to trust, truth, and relationships. They emphasize the power of words to build or destroy trust, referencing both Christian teachings and real-world examples. The discussion highlights the importance of integrity and how speech can unite or divide communities.
(21:18) In this segment, Edmund and Ryan explore the distinction between conviction and condemnation in ministry, emphasizing the need to guide people toward repentance with compassion. They discuss repairing relationships through honest apologies and forgiveness, as well as the importance of ministers modeling trust and truthfulness while offering support to those hurt by the Church or others.
(31:16) In the conclusion of the podcast, Edmund and Ryan discuss practical tips for ministers on presenting the 8th Commandment to others. They reflect on the balance between truth and love, addressing the struggle of people-pleasing and the sin of omission. Ryan also highlights the importance of honesty in relationships and points listeners to his podcast “Better Preach” for more resources on preaching and teaching.
Proclamation
Explanation
Connection
Edmund Mitchell: Hello everyone, and welcome back to The Real and True Podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts, Edmond Mitchell, and today we’re having a fantastic conversation about the Eighth Commandment, “You shall not bear false witness,” and we have a fantastic guest. I have been looking forward to this episode a lot. Ryan is a good friend of mine, and I could not think of anyone better to come on the podcast and talk about this topic. So we’re going to be diving into the Eighth Commandment, talking about its implications in ministry and how to present this Commandment in ministry and some other surprising topics. I think if you haven’t read this section of the Catechism, there’s some stuff in there that for me, I was kind of surprised that it’s in there. So I think we’re going to have a really great episode. Ryan, thank you so much for being here.
Ryan O’Hara: You bet, Edmund; great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Edmund Mitchell: Now I’m gonna embarrass you and give a little bio; a background for like the two people that don’t know you really well. I’m going to give a little background. So Ryan has 25 plus years of ministry experience with college students and young adults. Ryan continues to serve the Church across the country through speaking, consulting, podcasting. He’s a sought-after teacher, he’s spoken at FOCUS’s Seek Conferences and other events, he’s been featured as an expert on evangelization with Revive Parishes, served as a guest on Ascension’s popular Bible timeline show—if you’ve heard of that small podcast, I think it has a lot of promise—and written for a variety of Catholic publications on foster care and adoption.
And I just also want to say that one of the first times I came across your work was, I think it was a talk online. And this is one of the reasons why your name came to mind. I remember seeing you giving a talk, and there is such a gift of being able to be intentional with your words, but also relaxed in yourself; be yourself. And also speak truth and proclaim the Gospel or speak to people. And it was such a gift and it just stood out so much for me, that I’m so grateful that we’ve become friends. So, anyways, that’s Ryan, everybody. Ryan, thank you for being here. And I would love for other people to kind of hear the story of what brought you to what you’re doing now. So just like a quick look at any passions or stories of your origin story that brought you into the work that you’re doing now.
Ryan O’Hara: Yeah, thanks Edmund. It’s so fun to be here. 25-26 years ago, I graduated from college in the mid-90s and experienced conversion there; cradle Catholic, but it really wasn’t until college where Jesus became more the center of my life. And out of that experience and that encounter, I heard a call to ministry with college students. And so from the summer of 1997 on—where I started at the University of Missouri Newman Center as the campus minister—until just recently, I’ve been kind of full-time with college students and young adults. And I think it was really an even deeper sense that it was that timeframe in life where decisions about where life is going to go are really framed up and firmed up in college. And that conversion experience changed everything for me.
And it came in part through preaching and through presenting the Gospel and the mission of evangelization. And that’s just what I wanted to dedicate my life to. I wanted other Catholic college students to experience the same transformation that I did. And it wasn’t exactly through catechesis, it was really through the proclamation of the Gospel. And so that’s been kind of the golden thread, if you will. And I’ve had many great opportunities over the years to serve the young adult Church and just love that timeframe. And that’s been the call since I was on campus as a college student myself.
Edmund Mitchell: When I was thinking about this episode, I’ve had a few interactions again about where I’ve seen kind of your—what’s the right word?—intentionality, like being intentional about different areas of your life. And then also I was thinking about your work with SPO and missionaries and young adults. And obviously with missionary organizations, there’s formation of the person. And obviously the 10 Commandments is formation and how we live a moral life. So ‘I’m just really fascinated or interested in your thoughts, like what comes to mind when you’re thinking about this Commandment. What advice would you give for helping people understand the Eighth Commandment and that the Catechism presents it as more than just “not lying?” That’s what I thought for most of my life. I was like, “Okay, don’t lie. Check. I don’t think I often have in my daily life a problem with that. So check, I’m good.” So just fascinated your thoughts on this topic.
Ryan O’Hara: Well, that’s such a great point. Because so often we can take a superficial approach to the Commandments and really kind of a simple checkbox thing. And this one is one of those that’s easy to do that. When you say “formation,” one of the things that happened was that my wife and I went to this evangelization training program in New Zealand before we had kids. And we spent four months in formation and mission, and it was this Catholic school of evangelization. And we had these formation teachings every morning; scripture and discipleship stuff and theology, catechesis, and so on. And so we had three hours of that for about five days a week times three months. And so we were immersed in this great formative environment And there was one talk that stood out to me as probably the most important thing I heard during that time.
And it was a talk on right speech, and I had never heard anything like this. It sort of broke open the Eighth Commandment in a way that literally blew my mind. So much so, that I think I said fewer words that next week than I had maybe in my entire life. I couldn’t even open my mouth because I was so used to saying whatever comes to mind; no filter
Edmund Mitchell: Oh my gosh, I cannot relate.
Ryan O’Hara: And so I started seeing how often I might gossip, or how often I might speak about other people negatively, or how often I might complain or grumble, or how often I might curse; you just start going down the line. But they put it in the context.
The Scriptures have a lot to say about the power of our speech. And one of which is that “By all of our words, we will be judged,” is one of them. And there’s many places, like James 3, where it talks about if a person can control their tongue—they can, in a sense—control their life. And so this small little part of us; our tongue, can sort of guide our life, just like the small rudder of a large ship can just turn different ways and move that massive ship. And that’s the same way that the tongue sort of operates in our life. And so that’s the bigger context here. It’s not just “Do not lie,” but also the positive way is to tell the truth, and to live in truth, and the reality of what God has created for us.
Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I love this Commandment. I love thinking about speech and words. And when I think about this Commandment, and I’m thinking about at the most basic level the Trinity. And there are three persons in the Trinity, and that Jesus as the word that in the heart of the Trinity, God the father speaks Himself to Himself. And I start thinking about, “Man, I’m a person and there is also truth out there.” Not to get too philosophical, but things either exist or don’t exist, or have being or don’t have being. And I can experience things that are true, and then I have this ability—for some reason–to communicate to other persons, which means that there’s some type of relationship I have with other people.
So that idea of like, “I’m a person, there’s truth out there, and I have this capacity to communicate, which implies relationship with another person. What is it that I want to communicate to other people?”I can end up—not for hours, but for a long time—getting really deep on this concept and this idea. And I wonder, especially in particular, this Commandment is a lot about trust. In that “Okay, if we exist to be in love and relationship with God and with others, and we communicate to other people, we’re made for relationships and trust.”
And I’m wondering what you think about that concept for other people compared to Christians. Does the concept of relationship built on trust? Because, for example, this Commandment, I feel like a lot of people who aren’t even Christian would be like, “Oh yeah, I don’t think it’s good to lie.” And this section in the Catechism goes into the reasons for it because relationships should be built on trust and truthfulness. And also we have relationship with God on truth. So I’m wondering how you present that or talk about that or think about trust and relationships being different for a Christian? Not necessarily that people who aren’t Christian can’t have trust and good relationships, but is there a way that we think about that differently or Jesus changes that idea for us?
Ryan O’Hara: Well, Jesus raises the bar. And I think we see that all throughout the New Testament. It also says in the Scriptures that “Out of the overflow of our heart, our mouth speaks.” And so it actually tells the story of who we are—even on the inside—what comes out on the outside. So this is true, Christians or not. And I think we’re just held to and called to the fullest expression of what this Commandment entails. And it actually calls us to be much more filtered; to be much more controlled and thoughtful about our, our words. What I don’t think we always think about is that the truth will strengthen relationships.
And anytime you’re bearing false witness; any lies; any ways in which you might be detracting others or slandering others or even gossiping about others creates division. And so do we want unity or division? And so we’ve seen this play out now at scale on social media and in our politics, in our discourse; we’ve seen it play out on scale. And I don’t think anybody likes what they’re seeing. And so I think it’s actually one of the things that Christian or not, you can actually see pretty easily, or ask, “Would you be okay if your spouse had a loose relationship with the truth and wouldn’t be honest with you? Or how about your kids? What impact would it have if you really couldn’t trust your kids or they couldn’t trust you?”
We can all see that. And so I think in that sense a beautiful way to begin to orient people to truth is to actually have a living example of someone who will hold to the truth and will speak in such a way that brings unity rather than division. You won’t see it immediately, but you’ll see it over time. And that whatever comes out of that person’s mouth is a sign of who they are on the inside. And if it’s right speech, you see integrity, and they become more and more a person you can trust and that you can confide in. And that through that kind of openness and vulnerability and relationship, people can grow. There’s an opportunity—both for Christians and non-Christians—to learn from the beauty of a life of integrity that will uphold the good through their speech, and avoid those traps that are so easy to fall into in a negative way.
Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. It reminds me of the Proclamation video we came up with for this unit. We opened with the infamous line from Bill Clinton saying, “It all depends on what your definition of “is” is.”
Did he lie under oath? And there’s this long discussion about whether or not he lied under oath. And what I’m hearing you say is—or what is kind of implied here—is that it’s more than just speaking the truth. It’s about the trust. And the Catechism then goes on into this, so you could see why it goes into this. You could speak the truth in a way that damages trust, or you could withhold truth in a way that damages trust as well. But technically, Bill Clinton, maybe his argument is “Yeah, he spoke the truth. But the way he spoke, truth damaged trust.” And you wouldn’t want your spouse—like you said—you wouldn’t want your spouse to be like, “Well, when I said I am not in a relationship with another woman, I was speaking the truth for these technical reasons.” You’re damaging the trust here.
Ryan O’Hara: I think of it in terms of an analogy, I think of our words as the currency in relationships, much like the signs that we trust when we’re on the road with our cars. We believe that when I say “I’m going to 1942 Ross Avenue,” and I look at the street sign and it says Ross Avenue and I go to 1942, that’s going to be the house that I’m supposed to go to. I put a lot of trust in the truthfulness of that sign. And our words are symbols; are signs, and so we put a ton of faith. That’s just one example. Or when I see the stoplight is green, that also tells me that the other stoplight is red and I can go forward. There’s all of these kind of unspoken truths that we rely on every day. And I think that our streets are a great example of that. It’s the same way in our relationships. If those signs are off, people are going to collide and crash and things will be undermined. And that’s kind of how I visualize how important it is to tell the truth, but also to not bear false witness.
Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. Excuse me. I’m throwing you a curveball here, but if you were tasked with “You’re going to have to teach the Eighth Commandment to RCIA or OCIA adults or young adults.” What do you think is the common misconceptions or misunderstandings? What do you lead with? Do you go into the classroom and say, “Hey, the Commandments.” Where do you go?
Ryan O’Hara: Well, in this case, I think the thing we’ve heard forever is this line: “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.” We’ve repeated that idea. And there’s a certain way in which I need some of that in my life; to kind of not let anything that other people say impact me too deeply. But that’s not the reality of the experience. Our words are powerful. And they have the power to cut and the power to heal. God spoke the world into being, so our words are powerful. And that’s usually the place that I start. Also looking at Proverbs 18, it says: “The tongue has the power over life and death.” And so not only is the sticks and stones idea not true, it’s not biblical either.
And so I think it’s trying to reframe the power of our words; their ability to unite and their ability to divide. And I just want to talk very practically about all the ways that certain types of speech can build up and the way in which other types of speech tear down. And that there is a time and a place. I have a bunch of Gen Z kids. They’ve got this phrase “Not gonna lie.”
Edmund Mitchell: “No cap.”
Ryan O’Hara: Now, I’m dating myself even now. Maybe that was millennials. But this precedence of them saying “Not gonna lie,” is kind of like saying, “Well, I’m going to be really harsh and rude in what I’m about to say.”
Edmund Mitchell: Oh my gosh. I do this all the time where I’m like, “I’m going to be honest. I just want to be honest.” It’s like, “Were you not honest the last three weeks?”
Ryan O’Hara: And I think what that tells us is that we actually don’t know how to relate to one another in charity and in love. And just because I’m observing something doesn’t mean I need to point it out, for one. There is something such as forbearance, where someone has sort of an annoying idiosyncrasy. It may just be that, and I don’t need to bring it up. But there is this way in which we can better show how positive speech builds; strengthens relationships and negative speech destroys it. And we could point to all sorts of examples. And young people see it really, really clearly because they don’t have very many filters especially at a young age. That’s probably where I would start; the power of our words to unify or to divide. That would be kind of the starting point.
Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I’m interested in your thoughts on two ideas I’ll kind of throw out here. The first is, when I first got into catechesis or ministry or evangelization, I didn’t really understand. Probably because I was preaching or catechizing more to myself than I was the people in front of me. But I didn’t really understand the difference between condemnation and conviction. I think a beginner mistake with some of these Commandments or other issues, is to stand in front of people and say, “I need you all to agree that this is a sin and it’s bad.” And sometimes that can not give an invitation or give any way for someone that’s receiving that to go, “Okay, if I’m feeling like I’ve done this, what’s my path to not do this anymore? What’s my path to repentance?”
Sometimes we can present these things and basically make people feel like “You are all liars. People who do this are really bad.” Instead of saying “No, you’re a son or daughter of God. We all fall short, and here’s a path to not do this as much.” If you have experienced this; where you’ve broken other people’s trust or you haven’t been as truthful, we want you to feel convicted of sin. Meaning, “I want to run to my Father for forgiveness. I want to run to other people for forgiveness.” And not just condemnation like, “You’re liars. You’re all liars. Don’t raise your hand if you’ve ever done this because people who do this are really bad.” I’m interested in your thoughts—in this context—how to help people who feel like, “Oh man, I might have violated other people’s trust. Or I might have broken a relationship by the way that I speak to other people. Where do I go from there?”
Ryan O’Hara: Well, first I want to mention when you were talking about the distinction between conviction and condemnation and how, as we’re teaching, conviction can be sown in others when you share honestly and vulnerably from your own perspective. It’s not you, it’s we. If you’re honest about where you’re struggling and what your convictions are versus “Somehow you’ve got it right.” Or “The Church has it right and you better get it right,” then that’s where I think condemnation can come in. But if I’m speaking to myself and about myself and about my own experience, I think that helps to sow conviction. When it comes to repairing relationships, it’s the things we say or the things we didn’t say that break relationships.
This happens a lot in family life. And this happens a lot in work relationships and certainly in ministry. I think number one, you have to own it. And there are three things that I say to my kids; I say to coworkers. I’ve done this many times where something I’ve done or something I’ve said has broken a relationship. One, I want to own it. But what I’m saying—number one— is “I’m sorry. What I did was wrong. I won’t do it again, or I will try not to do it again.” Those three pieces are crucial. First, the “I’m sorry.” What that means is, “I’m sad. I’m sad I did this. There’s sorrow in my heart for how this hurt you. This is not who I want to be. I’m sad about this.” Number two, “What I did was wrong. And there’s no kind of sugarcoating it and no excuses.” And so really owning that what he did was wrong. And then, “I won’t do it again.” And then finally, “Please forgive me.”
So often when we’re trying to repair relationships, someone might acknowledge that they hurt the other person, but the other person will often say, “It’s okay, man. It’s cool.” And then what you want to say is “No, it’s not okay. I realize we’re kind of going through a little liturgy here. I’m acknowledging the wrong that I’ve done. I’m saying that I’m sorry, and I’m asking you for forgiveness.” And part of that—if the person is ready—ought to extend that forgiveness and to say, “I forgive you.” Which is to say, “I’m no longer holding this against you, and our relationship can now begin to heal.” Again, it’s not magic. It doesn’t happen right in the moment always. But “I’m sorry. I was wrong. I won’t do it again. Please forgive me.” That’s kind of a formula that I think could be really helpful. And it just matches what the Scriptures tell us and how to prepare and reconcile broken relationships.
Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I love that. I do that with my kids as well. I’m very sensitive to that. Like, “It’s okay.” And saying to my kids when I’m apologizing for something—like if I lost my temper—when they say, “It’s okay,” to say, “No, it wasn’t okay. Do you forgive me? And also, I want to let you know that it’s okay if you don’t forgive me yet, it’s okay if you need some time. And you’re still really hurt and you don’t want to forgive me yet, just let me know when you’ve forgiven me.” I also am aware that this topic—especially as ministers in the Church— there’s a sense, especially when you’re saying “We need to witness ways that we failed.”
Also, there’s a responsibility being ministers in the Church; being pastors of being catechists, of modeling trustworthiness and truthfulness and honesty. And I’m wondering your thoughts on how to facilitate maybe some of the healing when inevitably—I feel like in my experience—this topic comes up and often there are people who have felt betrayed by either the Church in different capitalizations or ministers or people in the Church, or even friends who were Christians or Catholics. I think that is kind of an important issue that comes up, or an important kind of barrier to this, is people who feel hurt by either Christians or the Church or communities. And I wonder how we facilitate that, especially when it’s not like we can say, “Well, let’s have a discussion with your neighbors who said they were Christians and broke some trust with you.” What are your thoughts on that? Do you feel like I’m off there, or that resonates with your experience?
Ryan O’Hara: No. Because what has happened is the Church or Her leaders—ordained or otherwise—have bore false witness with their lives, their actions, their words; they haven’t loved the other. And in so doing, people are hurt and have been trampled upon. And so I think we have to listen and really seek to understand—certainly pray with that person and then offer “What else can I do to help?” And to not try and fix something. Usually, if someone is coming to you and they’re sharing this hurt, there’s a mountain of pain that’s often underneath the surface. And hopefully what we’re doing as pastoral ministers is receiving that and giving space for that.
And knowing that what’s most important here is not to somehow defend the other or to stand up for something but first and foremost is to listen, to receive, to acknowledge and then to ask that person “What else can I do to support you? How can I keep praying for you?” I think that’s a posture of, of listening versus somehow defending or trying to make it all right, like eat an elephant right there in one sitting. I think the other question is “How can we be people that other people would be willing to confide in? And how can we be trustworthy of those experiences? How can we not betray their confidence?” I could break the Eighth Commandment by mishandling that really sensitive information, so how can I be the kind of person that people would be willing to and feel comfortable confiding in? But then also, how can I remain the kind of person that warranted that trust in the first place?
Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. Man, that’s such good advice. I know we’re, we’re wrapping up. I could talk to you in general for hours, but do you have any other practical tips? We try to really mind some practical takeaways for people. I think this was filled with some good ones. And I love a list; three steps in an apology. I love a list. But do you have any other things that came to mind around this topic that you’d like to give as practical takeaways for especially ministers or people presenting this topic?
Ryan O’Hara: Yeah. One thought that comes to mind is the way in which we are hesitant to speak the truth to others because somehow we feel like speaking the truth is also then devoid of love, is devoid of relationship, is devoid of kindness. Somehow speaking the truth has gained this sort of edge to it. And I don’t think that’s the reality. And yet, at the same time, I think we have to find ways to be honest in relationship in ways that other people can receive well and that fit the relationship. I think the people-pleaser in me oftentimes sins against the Eighth Commandment through omission and going along with whatever’s in front of me and kind of giving lip service trying to protect the relationship. While at the same time either seeing something or hearing something that isn’t in accord with the truth.
And depending on our relationship, there are ways in which I think God calls me to tell the truth by speaking up and not giving into that—if you will—that sin of omission to just allow a false witness to pass by. And again, we have to be careful with that, of course, because it has to be fitting the relationship and done in a way that honors that relationship. Maybe I’m just sharing my own life; it’s that sin of omission in a close relationship. That because of the people-pleaser in me and wanting to avoid conflict and to be the peacekeeper rather than the peacemaker. And peacemakers have to dive into conflict. And so that’s the kind of person that I want to be.
Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I relate to that so much. That’s definitely something I struggle with is not speaking up. I’m not hiding exactly how I feel, but I’m trying to give space to this other person to vocalize an opinion that’s very different than mine.
Ryan O’Hara: And you know what? I think a test too is sometimes that can happen. It happens in the grocery store, let’s say. I may or may not say something, but if I’m tempted to talk about it behind that person’s back and somehow have some big opinions about their ideas, and I’m bringing other people into that and I avoid it, then that should start to tell me, “Okay. I missed an opportunity and I need to stop talking about them behind their backs and be willing to find a way to talk to them face-to-face.” So I think that might be a good test if we ever feel like the people-pleasing is getting out of control a bit. How do I handle that experience when they’re not around?
Edmund Mitchell: And to go back to relationship, how important is this relationship in my life? Because like you said, it’s a different thing to not go into it with someone at the grocery store, but then if it’s your cousin or your spouse or someone you call a good friend, then there’s a higher responsibility there. Yeah, I love this. This is really great. I hope people go and read this section of the Catechism and then there’s resources. Where would you like to point people, Ryan, to either follow your work or other resources? Anywhere you want to point people online that they could go?
Ryan O’Hara: I mentioned at the beginning that the line of God’s call on my life is the preaching of the Gospel. And in particular, it’s been in the context of college students and young adults, but in the last year I’ve moved more out into serving the Church more broadly through parish missions and parish retreats. And so people can learn more about that at https://www.ryanohara.org/ But I also run a podcast on delivering and developing great Catholic talks—there’s a tagline for you—called Better Preach. In fact, you’ve been one of my many great guests, Edmund. Would love for people to check out the podcast and check out the website.
Edmund Mitchell: Yeah, I think that’s great. I think that’s a great resource especially for this topic, but just also for catechists, ministers. Fantastic resource. I love your podcast. Thank you so much, Ryan, for being here.
Ryan O’Hara: You bet, man. Love being here. Thanks for having me.
Edmund Mitchell: Thank you so much everyone for listening to this episode. And if you were watching on YouTube, you can comment down below. We read all the comments; we’d love for you to also subscribe to this podcast. You could listen anywhere podcasts are distributed. And our mission and vision of Real and True is to unlock the truth and beauty of the Catechism and help people around the world encounter its pulsating heart, Jesus Christ. And thank you so much for being here. We look forward to you joining us in the next episode.
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