Video Transcript

Edmund Mitchell: Hi everyone, and welcome back to The Real and True Podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts, Edmund Mitchell.

Emily Mentock: And I’m Emily Mentock.

Edmund Mitchell: And we’re very excited for today’s episode. This is the first episode of season four, so we’re going into the fourth pillar on the Catechism. And by the end of this episode, we’re hoping that you walk away thinking about the fourth pillar of prayer very differently, and that you have some practical tips but also some kind of shortcut summaries of ways to think about the fourth pillar on the Catechism. So that you feel confident in what the Church teaches on prayer, and you feel like you can go out into the world; you can teach this stuff. But also that you’re going to begin this journey; a transformational journey yourself, like we’ve experienced, of prayer changing if we start understanding the way the Catechism presents it. Does that sound fair, Emily? Do you think people will get that?

Emily Mentock: Yes. I hope that you all do. This season of the podcast what you can expect is that we’ll be journeying through the fourth pillar. And like Edmund said, we want you to feel like you have a solid foundation of understanding the Church’s tradition on prayer and what the Church teaches about prayer, that you can go out and share that with others, you feel confident and equipped to do that, but most importantly, that you will have learned to know and love the Church’s teaching on prayer so that you can have a deeper and more personal relationship with God. And we’re going to be talking, especially during this episode, about “What is that personal relationship?” Prayer as personal relationship.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. A lot of people in my life have suggested that this pillar is so important that in a lot of ways you could read this pillar first before you get into the Catechism. And we’re going to talk about the first paragraph and how it explains that prayer is what makes everything else work. But before we get into that, just to kind of share—because all of us come from different backgrounds or experiences of prayer—maybe we can share a little bit what our experience of prayer has been growing up and how it maybe changed really briefly. And then for you listening at home, maybe just hear, what do you resonate with? What sounds similar to your experience? And how we can start talking about prayer, starting with what we experienced in that. So Emily, when someone said “prayer” or like in your life growing up, what did you think of? What did you experience?

Emily Mentock: Yeah. For me, prayer, growing up in a Catholic family, baptized when I was a baby, prayer was a routine that we did. It was understood to be conversing with God in some way, but I mostly just learned recited prayers. I very rarely ever heard spontaneous prayer. My only understanding of the five types of prayer came from Catholic school; catechesis. So for me, the way I experienced prayer was either praying the rosary or praying grace before a meal, even if I didn’t totally understand what I was saying because it’s in  old English language where you’re saying “thy” and “thou.” And I understood you can kind of turn to God and ask Him for something. I most practiced this during Notre Dame football games when we really needed a fourth quarter score. And I really believed that God was listening to my prayers.

Edmund Mitchell: And He was.

Emily Mentock: He was really listening. He really saw my heart genuinely in those moments, especially as a child. But because I had never thought about my prayer being anything more than what I was taught; what was passed down to me. Probably the most important, but basic prayers: grace before a meal, Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, things like that. By the time I got to college and in adulthood, mostly stopped praying because it was easy to eliminate some of those routines from my life when they didn’t feel relevant, except for, again, in those moments of what I felt was dire need, like during sporting events or when I was on a bumpy plane ride or something like that. What about you, Edmund?

Edmund Mitchell: Thanks for sharing that. I think it’s really important for us to just remember what it was like. As you were sharing that story, I was thinking about my own story and thinking, “Oh yeah, I forgot that I used to do the same thing.” Not sports situations, but like tests and stuff. That was my experience of prayer. There was a thing we did every night together as a family before we went to bed; we recited some memorized prayers. And then when I was in trouble, or when I was just really nervous about something, that was when I said the prayer. And I want to be honest, I do think I had this other aspect of prayer where I felt like I was talking with someone who cared about me, but it wasn’t structured or intentional or something until I got to a Catholic university where people talked about prayer in a way that was very different.

And I had never heard anyone talk about prayer that way. And they would say things like, “What is Jesus saying to you in prayer?” Or “What has Jesus taught you or revealing to you?” Or “How is your relationship with Jesus?” And I thought, “Man, you guys sound like you have Him in your closet. What are you doing? How are you able to do this?” Like, that’s just a very different way of talking about it. And so that really started changing once I went back to prayer and thought, “Okay, God, I want to have this with You. What would that look like?” It really changed my life. And it was only reinforced when I read the Catechism that this is actually what the Church teaches. It isn’t a Protestant thing or just a thing for crazy people. The Church—and actually all the saints—had this really profound, personal relationship with Jesus in prayer. And that’s what this pillar really presents to us.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. The personal relationship aspect of prayer that we’re going to keep talking about in this episode is really what unlocks our understanding and connection to every single other thing we know about God. Because it’s one thing to know God, but just like the Catechism states the beginning, it’s also to love God. And it’s very hard to love somebody that you don’t have a personal relationship with. So if you’ve been journeying with us through this project, or you’ve been studying your faith in whatever format, and you’ve been learning, learning, learning, but you’re still thinking to yourself, “Oh, why hasn’t this clicked as much as you studied it?” And perhaps prayer and working on your prayer life—which this fourth pillar of the Catechism says—unites and sort of elevates all that we’ve learned about God; to know God through a personal relationship, which is what prayer is, will kind of then put all of those things into deeper meaning and better relevance to your life.

Which is why, as you said, we could have started with this. Some people do start their journey through the faith with a personal relationship and then learn along the way. And for some of us maybe we learned first, and then through working on that personal relationship; through building a prayer life, everything you’ve learned makes more sense and is truer for you and your heart. One thing I’ve learned from you is that the first paragraph of any pillar is a great place to start because it really summarizes where that pillar is going to go and some of the most important concepts that we’re going to be studying, from the way the Church wants us to understand the faith. So, why don’t you take us into that?

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. That’s a hack right there. That’s worth this whole episode. If you’re short on time, read the first paragraph of each pillar. Because in the first paragraph, it sets out the rest of that pillar. So in the first paragraph of the fourth pillar on prayer, it always will summarize the whole Catechism. So it says, “The Church professes the mystery of the Apostle’s Creed..” So in the Catechism, it calls them parts. So part one, read pillar one “…And celebrates in the sacramental liturgy..” That’s pillar two. “So that the life of the faithful may be conformed to Christ in the Holy Spirit.” Part three, morality; Christian morality. “This Mystery…” So parts one, two, and three; pillars, 1, 2, 3 “…requires that the faithful believe it, celebrate it, and live from it, from this vital and personal relationship with a living tree, God.” Then this last sentence, which we’ve talked about, is so powerful. It says, “This relationship is prayer.”

Emily Mentock: Yeah. I think for me it was instantly one of the most transformative parts of the pillar. It gets it right at the beginning. That totally changes how you think about prayer if you grew up with an understanding the way I did, which is that prayer is not something you do within a relationship, prayer is the relationship. Prayer is that life lived with God in connection with God. And that’s very personal. It’s unique to your relationship with God. And it’s not this thing that you have to do as an obligation to the relationship or a cheat code for it. It just is the expression of that relationship. And I think that is such an important thing for anyone to take away.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I used to do prayer because I thought “If I do prayer, my relationship with God is good. So prayer helps my relationship with God.” And it’s like, prayer does not help our relationship with God, prayer IS the relationship with God.

Emily Mentock: Yeah.

Edmund Mitchell: And I think what comes to mind actually that would be very helpful for people, is that when we say a personal relationship, it’s not like we’re saying, “Hey, your little cellphone is like your personal assistant, meaning it’s customized to you. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, meaning my relationship is whatever I want it to look like and how I craft it.” Instead, what it means is it is a personal relationship. Meaning that you as a person matter in this relationship. I have a personal relationship with my mom. No one else has that relationship. Only I do. It doesn’t mean that I get to decide what my relationship with my mom is like. It means that I am a person and being a person in this relationship matters. I matter, what I believe, how I act, how I live my life matters. 

And what’s interesting is that the Catechism previous to this—the Catechism of the Council of Trent hundreds of years prior—only had three pillars. And then they had another section that talked about the Our Father. But this new Catechism that came out in the nineties decided to make its own pillar on prayer. And why is that? Well, it’s because lots of people in the modern age had personally stopped believing in God or having a relationship with Him. So it’s so important the Church is saying, “We need to highlight that prayer is not a new thing. We need to highlight this thing that we’ve always had. That prayer is personal and it matters; your relationship in this matters.” So if you’re going to recite a prayer, it matters that you know what you’re saying and you’re using it as a tool to speak to God as opposed to just a thing you’re doing as a ritual.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. I love what you said, how it’s not a customization. We can choose how we engage in that personal relationship, and it has real person-to-person—the persons of the Trinity—like consequences or effects in that relationship. It’s not like, “Oh, I want to tailor this just to me.” Because it is a person to-person relationship, it is as unique as you are. And also, what you put in matters. The same way it matters in a friendship or in a relationship with another loved one. And that’s so important to remember. It’s not “Oh, how do I want to pray to God today? Do I want to just be sorry for my mistakes? Or do I want to cultivate a relationship with God that’s just prayed through the rosary; through the intercession of Mary?” It’s really about who you are and who you’re bringing to that relationship and who you allow God to be in your heart.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. When I say I have a personal relationship with my mom, it doesn’t mean that I can go, “My personal relationship with my mom means that I don’t have to talk to her ever. And I only ever speak to her disrespectfully.” No, what you mean is “I have a personal relationship with my mom, meaning I am involved in it and I care.” And so, why don’t we start talking a little more about the specifics of what the Catechism presents for prayer? And there’s two things that presents, which is really interesting. One of them is this relationship, but in this opening of the Catechism—which is a way for you to think about prayer—is that prayer is a gift, and prayer is relationship. So it’s this gift in relationship that’s really interesting to think about because that really changes the way I thought about prayer. It’s really challenging or would’ve been challenging if someone walked up to me and said, “Prayer is a gift from God, and it is a relationship.” I would’ve been like, “Wow.” What is your reaction to that? What do you think old Emily would’ve said besides like, “Hey, this is boring. I don’t want to talk about it.” How would she have responded to that? Like, “prayer is a gift and a relationship?”

Emily Mentock: I think I would’ve just thought of both of those things as a bit superficial or transactional. So like “prayer is a gift.” I don’t think I would’ve thought of it as like the way I actually approach gifts with a friend. I would’ve kept it as like, “Oh, okay. This is more like a privilege or there’s an access point you could tap into” or something like that. Rather than understanding it like truly thinking of God as a person—which is how God chooses to relate to us—in relationship—which God chooses; God desires. And that gift is our opportunity to be back in relationship with God, the creator of the universe, who is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That is just mind blowing to think about now. And I think if people are intimidated about the idea of having a relationship with Jesus or they’ve heard people talk about Jesus being their friend, and they just don’t know how to relate to that, I think the first barrier to try to break down to come to a true understanding of that is to not think of gift as a transactional thing, but as really more of a gift of self in the deepest, most personal relationships that we can have here on Earth.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. That’s a thousand percent. That’s so right. I think we come back to this every now and then on the podcast, that we need to remember that we’re in a post-Christian world in the sense that most people more or less have heard of Christianity and think they know what it is. So, we just assume that prayer is a thing that everyone can just sit down and do and it works. Now, I’ll just say: everyone can pray. God can hear everyone; prayer works no matter what. But before Jesus, prayer was different. Sitting down and trying to talk to God—while God could hear you, and it was a thing you could do—just put yourself in that mind-frame of “Prayer is different for Christians. There is a special relationship with God we’re given.”

And I never stopped to think about that. And when you read this part of the Catechism on prayer, it’s saying, “No, this is a really special thing that only God can control. We don’t get to just make it happen.” So we can sit down and ask God for the gift of prayer, not meaning he’s going to gift us with levitating or feeling something or whatever. In the same way, it is a gift to have the opportunity to talk to my mom. It’s not something I can just do anywhere. There is something happening here. When she is quiet and allows me to speak, that is a gift she’s giving me. It’s not something I can just control and do. It’s anything I want it to be. It’s a gift. It’s something that I can come to with reverence.

Emily Mentock: Yeah, you’re exactly right. And I think later on in this pillar, we’re going to talk more when we go kind of line-by-line in the Our Father how Jesus taught us to pray. Jesus—In perfect communion with His Father—taught us how to pray to God, our Father, as well. And so I’m really looking forward to that. But another piece that I think speaks to the personal relationship and gift side of prayer is how precious it is to God, because the Scripture actually emphasizes how prayer comes from the heart. 

We referenced this way back early on; one of the earliest units from Part One, when we were understanding how God reveals Himself to us. And we heard about the heart. It comes back up, especially in this section on prayer, because it emphasizes—which I think is so important for people to realize and reflect on the way they’ve prayed in the past—you kind of know when something is coming from your head or it’s a superficial action, versus when it’s coming from your heart. And I think it’s just so beautiful that Scripture—and then emphasized here in the Catechism for us—talks about how prayer; that true relationship with God, is heart-to-heart. It comes from our heart when we’re in relationship with God. And God speaks right into our heart when He’s revealing something to us. Can you talk more about that?

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. This is a theme in the Church’s conversation about evangelization. It’s a theme in the last couple decades. There was a time when many people’s understanding of the faith was intellectual subject, just like all intellectual subjects. So we can talk about the economy, politics, philosophy, religion. And so some people were presented the faith that way. This is a subject you can intellectually understand and decide if you want to consent to it or not, or ascent to it or not. The Catechism; the reason it’s bringing back up this word is it’s reviving this understanding. It’s not a new understanding, but it’s trying to refocus our attention because a lot of people in the Church have been presented this as an intellectual opportunity. Whereas what the true life of the Christian is, is it’s something that happens at the heart.

And this isn’t like a touchy-feely, emotional thing. There are places you can go to get nerdy about the philosophical things that are going on here. But the Catechism summarizes it pretty clearly. I love this where it says—this is in paragraph 2563—”The heart is the dwelling place where I am, where I live. The heart is our hidden center, beyond the grasp of our reason and others…The heart is the place of decision, deeper than our psychic drives…It’s the place of encounter because we live in relationship.” And what’s that bringing to mind is your intellect is important; your will or your ability to choose things are important. But there is—I love that you said this. There is a place that we have a sense of where we feel something very strongly, we believe something really strongly, and we choose really strongly from that place. And the Bible and the Catechism are saying, “That place we’re going to call ‘the heart.’” It’s the place of faith. It’s the place where faith is occurring. It’s where our soul is. It’s where Jesus wants to encounter us, not just as an intellectual subject. Does that make sense? Do you think people would understand that?

Emily Mentock: I hope they do, because it’s just the most beautiful thing.

Edmund Mitchell: It is. It’s amazing.

Emily Mentock: “The heart is the dwelling place where I am, where I live; the hidden center.” I just love that. And the Catechism makes a point. “Beyond the grasp of our reason.” I think it’s just one practical tip. I know we’re going to get into more practical tips, but one thing I would just really encourage people to do is to try and be aware of that place. Cherish that place. I think so many of us just in our busy lives and maybe some of the ways the world operates today, there’s so much our heads need to do just to navigate the world. There’s so much about our interactions. But when you think about tapping into where your heart is; to be aware of that dwelling place, to be aware of that place where God wants to meet you, that version of yourself. He knows about your whole body and every thought, every hair in your head, but He wants to have that relationship come from your heart. And I think that we’ve all had times where we’ve gone to Mass or we’ve prayed or we’ve received one of the Sacraments and we know when we’ve done it from here. But maybe if you can recall one of the times..I’m pointing to my heart. It’s not a physical place. It’s not a physical place.

If you can recall when you know that expression of prayer; that experience of God tapped into your heart, try to return to that place, I think that is really what unlocks what the Catechism is describing as “Prayer as relationship,” not just a routine that builds a habit of relationship or something like that.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I’m so glad you’re saying this because the advice you’re giving is what started an entire religious order. So St. Ignatius of Loyola, this is what he did. He was sitting in a hospital bed; he’s reading military stories and romance stories, and he begins becoming aware—after he’s run out of books to read—he starts reading some lives of the saints. And he starts becoming aware that something in him is different when he is reading the lives of the saints compared to the other things he’s reading. And he just follows that awareness to becoming a saint. He follows that awareness of “Something is different here.” He ends up writing—if you haven’t heard of this, you should read it. It’s really great. —The Discernment of Spirits. But he writes some principles and rules that you can learn to become more aware of that movement of the heart.

And if you think about it, we’re not talking about just an emotional thing, we’re talking about a spiritual thing. In Scripture and in the Church’s teaching, when it describes the beatific vision, when we’re in heaven, what will happen? We will know God. So that’s an intellectual thing. But it also says we will experience joy and peace; we’ll experience love. These are things that we don’t only experience in our heads. These are things we experience in our heart. We also don’t only experience them in our emotions, there is something different. I bet if you thought about your history with God, we could pull up some moments where it’s like “Something was different about this. There was a movement that happened, and it wasn’t just in my emotions or in my intellect. There was something different about this and something happened.” Becoming more aware of your heart is what the Catechism is presenting here. We need to first help other people just even be aware of that and understand that we’re not just talking about, “Oh, I get emotional when I watch this movie.” It’s like, “There’s something different. And can you start becoming more aware of that?”

Emily Mentock: Yeah. And I think your point about it being more than emotion because it can be any of emotions. I can think of times where in my sadness, I have longed for God in a deeper, more genuine way. Or longed for solution; longed for love. And in my happiest moments, been overwhelmed with gratitude for what God has done in my life. Or in those moments just been aware of answered prayers. If people are going to be doing this reflection, we really encourage you to think also about a time where you felt your prayer was answered in a way that was very true to your heart. Not just like, “Oh God, I hope the Notre Dame football team can win this game.” Although, again, to my 9-year-old self, that was very genuine.

Edmund Mitchell: It’s better than nothing.

Emily Mentock: It was better than nothing.

Edmund Mitchell: God will take whatever. He’s like, “Yeah, let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about the football game.”

Edmund Mitchell: **Tangent on Notre Dame football prayers removed for time.**

Emily Mentock: Reflecting on when you had a prayer answered in a way that only somebody who really knew you would understand; somebody who really gets you. So I can think of times in my life where maybe to the world it seems like a coincidence that this happened or by chance that these things lined up. But I know from the longing of my heart; from the deepest part of my heart that, “Wow.” It would be like a friend throwing you the most personalized surprise party, but then 100 times better than that. Like something that only somebody who would really know your heart would be able to give to you as a gift. And I know that in actually working on this unit, Edmund, you maybe had a similar story for that.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. So I was praying on my way to one of my son’s football games, and—as it happens a lot—I was working on thinking through one of the Connection videos, which are live-action and they need visuals. And I really needed a visual for the background of it. And I was having a hard time finding something to use. And I had been reflecting on some content from the Catechism and reflecting on this idea that God wants us to petition Him for things. He wants us to ask Him and give Him permission to be involved. Otherwise, sometimes He might not be involved. So I’m driving out and I think, “Okay, God. You want to be involved in this? I don’t really think you care too much about this, but I’m going to invite you into this. Can you help me find a visual for this backdrop? Also, I’m just feeling some emotions about today and I’m just feeling kind of not confident and just feeling kind of down.” 

So I go to the football game, come back out, and then as I’m driving down some back roads or whatever…I have a devotion to the Sacred Heart. This Catechism video is about the heart. It’s about prayer. I also have a devotion to the Holy Family. I also grew up in a parish that was predominantly Spanish-speaking people, and it just felt very homey and safe to be around Mexican moms and Spanish dads and all this stuff. And so I passed this mailbox that had this huge painting of Jesus in the Sacred Heart. Next to it, there was a painting of the Holy Family.

There’s a bunch of statues all over the lawn and a bunch of religious things. And I was like, “I have to pull over.” And so I pull over, get out, and she says she’s selling these religious things. There’s a mom that comes out; the Spanish-speaking mom. I don’t speak Spanish. And what happened was, I have this beautiful encounter with this family. She’s bringing her kids out. I’m telling them about Real+True. I’m like, “Could you sign the back of this painting? I want to buy this painting and I want to use it in videos.” And she’s like, “This is so cool.” And they’re looking on my phone at the Spanish videos and their sons are explaining it. And she had so many kids. At first, I thought she had three or four, and more kids kept coming out. And it’s like, “Oh, this kid’s 18, and this kid’s 14.” And pretty soon there’s this whole family around me just so excited, and excited about the project; excited about what we’re doing.

They feel really blessed. I’m like, “This is amazing for me.” And I was like, “Hey, could you pray for us? Could we just pray?” And the mom—she starts tearing up—is just like “Praise for the project and for us” and just thanks God. And so I get back in the car and I was just like, “Okay, God. I get it. Cool. Even if this painting doesn’t make it into some of the videos, You did a thing.” Sure, I could just assume this is a coincidence if I wanted to. Or I could have this relationship with God and be like, “Man, He gave me this experience that was very personal to me. I felt so loved in this moment.” And I really felt like, “Man, God kind of took care of me right here and just said, ‘Hey, I see you and I care for you and I want to be involved.’”

And my whole mood for the whole day was different. And it wasn’t anything crazy. I don’t want to set people up of like “Your prayer has to be crazy and wild.”

Emily Mentock: “Challenge God.”

Edmund Mitchell: Exactly. When I shared this story with you, I hadn’t thought about it this way until you had pointed out “That was such a personal experience for you.” And I was like, “Yeah, that is part of what was so great about it.” It made sense to me, and it really meant a lot to me. And that’s what we’re talking about. It could be really normal, everyday things, but knowing and trusting that God wants to personally say something to you through your life. Which the Catechism says, one of the areas we can listen for God’s voices is in the everyday ongoings of our life.

I had different emotions throughout the whole experience; positive emotions. Beforehand, I had negatives and stuff. But there was something that changed in my heart for the rest of that day, which was like, “Man, I feel there was a spiritual thing that happened.” And I could tell that there was something different. And even though later in the day I got frustrated with something or whatever, there was a different experience of my day because I’d connected with God in this way. And it’s something you can do in prayer. It’s something you can ask God for.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. Thanks again for sharing that story. So full disclosure for the audience, Edmund told me the story and I was like, “You have to share that on the podcast!”

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I was excited to.

Emily Mentock: One thing that stands out is you said you felt so loved. Honestly, you could have taken that same route from Google Maps. If you hadn’t prayed and asked God to help you, you could have gone through that entire experience and not felt like it was an answer to your prayer. And that’s where prayer is the relationship. It’s not what you do. It’s not just that you asked for something and you got it, or you said magic words and then the painting appeared. It’s not that. In your heart, you said, “God, I’d like your help. I’d really like your help. I’d really like your help to make this happen.”

Edmund Mitchell: I was just going to say you talked about this—when we first talked about it—when we want something, it’s not really the thing we want. When I need help around the house, it’s not actually the help around the house I want. Because one of my kids could help me around the house in a way that makes me feel very unloved. It’s really like “I want to feel like my kids respect the place we live.” Or if you ask your husband or wife “Hey, I need help with this thing.” You don’t actually really want just the thing, you want to feel cared for. And you pointed that out. And it was so helpful in thinking about prayer. It’s not just the request, it’s that He cares. That’s what happened. There’s a heart thing happening here.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. I think most wives and girlfriends say this, but “You don’t want your husband to get you flowers. You want him to want to get you flowers.”

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah.

Emily Mentock: Because it’s not about the flowers. It’s about if he wanted to get you flowers. That is what would be so loving. And it could be getting you chores, or saying you’re beautiful or whatever. And who God is? It’s like “God is the one who wants to get you flowers.”

Edmund Mitchell: Yes.

Emily Mentock: God wants everything good for your life. The story that you shared and a reflection on it of like what made that prayer; what makes why we say “Prayer is relationship” is because it’s not just about what you ask for and what you get, or what you say and if you hear a voice from above, but it is how you opened your heart and then you received that gift back into your heart.

And to your point of being able to do this in our daily lives, you could go about your whole life either opening your heart to the Lord and receiving what He has to give to you there, or not. The spiritual life; a prayer life is when you sort of learn and practice inviting God into your life all the time. So why do we pray grace before a meal? Right? You could say, “Oh, it’s just a routine.” And I truly, until adulthood, did not think about even what I’m saying for the classic “Bless us, O Lord” prayer. But now that I know what I’m saying, what I tend to do when I’m having grace before a meal—unless I’m with a big Catholic group or something—is say what I’m meaning to say in a way that’s truer than the words.

Like, “God, thank you for this food. Thank you for everybody who touched it to get it to my plate today. And I also want to remember in this moment those who don’t have food. Help me respond generously to them.” And that is my prayer instead of “Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts.” Sometimes to kind of break out of the routine of some of these go-to prayers that we have can help reopen our hearts to what’s really happening there. And then even when you return to those prayers, they’re more meaningful because they’re coming from a place that is that inner dwelling place where you are.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. What comes to mind is like if someone said, “Hey, before you leave the house every day, turn to your spouse and say, ‘I love you. Thank you for everything you’re doing for our family.’” You could treat that as a “Bless us, O Lord” ritualized prayer. You would know immediately if you or your spouse didn’t mean it and just was getting through it. But there is a difference. We all know when we know that this person means it. Why is this suggestion to pray grace before a meal? Why meals? What’s the real goal here? It’s not that God needs us to recite this or needs us to really mean it for His sake, it’s that our hearts are made for this relationship.

So when we do mean these words, our experience of the world is different. Our experience of food; of our lives does change the more we can stay in that heart-to-heart connection with God. So really it’s, “Hey, before you pray every day or before you eat every day, this is a trigger for you to take a moment to have that connection with God. Say these words and try to mean them.” St. Francis de Sales describes it as true devotion where he says, “Whatever stirs up devotion.” Is how he describes that experience where there’s prayer happening in your heart; there’s this feeling of whatever stirs up devotion. So if you can stir up devotion by a “Bless us, O Lord,” then that’s great. But if there’s something else you need to say before you eat; if you need to sit there and just go, “God, thank you for this food,” that would be much better to do for now. Until you can get to that point of feeling—not feeling. I want to shy away from saying “feeling”—before you can get to that point of praying these words with your heart.

Emily Mentock: I love that definition of it being devotion. And I got to shout out to Saint Théresé of Lisieux on whose feast day we’re recording this.

Edmund Mitchell: Love her.

Emily Mentock: But she’s quoted in the Catechism at the start of this pillar with her definition of prayer, which is that it’s “The raising of one’s mind and heart to God.” And I love that definition because of the simplicity. Because I think there’s a way in which any moment can be a prayerful moment. It doesn’t have to be in Mass, although I think being in Mass kind of helps lift our hearts and minds to God. It could be at home, it could be on a run, it could be listening to a podcast. And when you pair that with what you were saying from St. Francis de Sales of like whatever’s inspiring devotion. 

Sometimes when I go for a walk in nature, I’m just amazed at God’s creation and thinking of God and being grateful for it and thinking how I can care for it better. Maybe walking in nature is a place that I can pray because my heart is unlocked there and the relationship with God is deepened there. But that can be so, so many different things. So again, I would just really encourage our audience to think about “Let’s start with prayer.” I think people will be so inspired when they read what the Catechism actually says about prayer. It’s so beautifully written.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah.

Emily Mentock: And you’ll discover there how it talks about the heart and the personal relationship. And as you read those things, think about the times in your life where you have experienced that personal relationship or you’ve felt that you’ve been in a heart-to-heart moment with God.

And then from there, you can also think about where have those moments been? When have those prayers been answered? Where do you feel that your heart is lifted up to a tiny glimpse of that beatific vision of joy and union with God? And I think that becoming aware of those things can really help us build that practice of prayer as relationship. Not that reciting the other prayers does not, because I do think that with any relationship, returning to the habit can help build those things. But there is a genuineness that comes with all of that. And that’s something that I think all of us—no matter where we are in our spiritual journey—can always tap into and try to deepen.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. That’s so great. So as we’re wrapping this up for people you set out some good things there where you’re like, “Just go read the pillar. Think about relationship as you’re doing it, and be aware of your heart. Think about your heart and times that you’ve experienced that.” I think you’d have a totally different experience praying and reading through this pillar. One of the things as we’re thinking about those who are ministering to in catechesis or evangelization is just to keep in mind that everything should be presented with this in mind. That we’re not presenting intellectual just intellectual ideas to be intellectually assented to. We’re not just telling people things they should do with their will and decide to do. And we’re not just talking about things that make us feel good. There is a decision point in our heart; that there’s a heart level to what we’re talking about.

So a lot of people don’t have that as their experience of church or the faith, and haven’t ever been around someone who was even interested in what was going on in their heart. Now there are sensitive ways to do this. I’m not recommending that you say, “Hey, today we’re talking about the Incarnation.” And then at the end of the session you’re just like, “What is your heart feeling?” But there are ways to talk and be interested in someone’s reaction to what you’re presenting to them; moving at a deeper level than just intellectually and opening up. One of the practicals is just giving space for prayer that’s not just memorized prayer, but giving space for silence and saying, “I would like us now to just spend a few seconds. Is there a place in our heart where we are feeling moved by this or where God is trying to speak to us at a deeper level? Let’s just spend a minute or two in silence, and then write down on a piece of paper what you think. Just whatever you’re thinking or feeling that ‘God might be moving at my heart level on this.’” That would be a really helpful, practical takeaway that would change catechesis in a lot of parishes.

Emily Mentock: I think another thing that all of us can do—whether we’re formal catechists or just trying to live our faith—is be aware of how we speak about prayer to others. Especially part of the intention of those who put this Catechism together and wanting to call out prayer and the tradition of prayer and what we believe about this relationship with God. The reason why it got made as this Part Four is because they’re recognizing a need for it in our world; need for it in our Church. And so when I look back at how my relationship with prayer has evolved over time; my relationship with God has grown over time, it actually was many times the witness of others and how they talked about their relationship with God, whether it’s about how their prayers were answered, how they prayed with me, or in front of me.

That really helped me stay aware that there was something more there than what I was tapping into at the time. So whether it was the way people spoke just so personally and from their hearts when they were praying before a meeting we were going to have, or a different podcast we were going to record. And I had this one priest that I worked with on a different podcast who, the way he prayed, changed my prayer life forever because I saw the closeness of his relationship and it inspired me to want to pursue that. 

Or sharing the joy of answered prayers, or to not be afraid to—in your moments of sorrow—say that you’ll pray for that person and then live in a way that they know that you really mean it. So I think sort of the witness of this relationship and the witness of prayer is a really effective way to invite others into it. And if you’re a catechist who’s teaching a classroom, the way you also speak about prayer and live prayer and hopefully are practicing and pursuing a rich prayer life yourself, that is going to be the most effective thing in helping your students or those that you’re catechizing also desire and pursue and be open to unlocking their hearts for their own personal relationship with God.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah, that’s great advice. It’s very powerful. If that’s one of the only things you do is just talk more about your experience of prayer, that would really transform parishes. One of the last things I want to include here is that—and you mentioned this at the beginning—there are the five ways of prayer. There’s praying privately, there’s also praying as a Church. Our prayer is always done in the context of the Church. Even when we’re alone, we’re praying with the Church. But also, it should bring us to and find its fulfillment in the Mass, the liturgy, the prayers of the Church. But think of these not as “There’s a bunch of different ways of prayer I have to force people to do, and they have to make sure they’re doing all of them.” Think of it more like you might think of the five love languages.

These are different ways that we can have this relationship with God. There are different expressions of it. There are different opportunities to experience this gift. And we all kind of have our favorites that we turn to. We all kind of have the ones that we’re more comfortable with. I’m less comfortable with intercessory or petition prayer for some reason. I have such a short attention span. It’s hard for me to remember to like, “Oh, I need to pray for this. I need to pray for this.” First of all, lots of different people you’re ministering to; you’re catechizing are going to resonate initially with different ones. So you can look there for ideas of “How do I incorporate a different type of prayer into this?” 

And then also, I encourage you when you’re talking with people, help them rediscover or think differently about some of those types of prayer that they might not go to naturally. So it was helpful for me to spend a little time thinking through and talking and reading about prayers of petition because I just don’t naturally do that. So looking through and “How do I make sure I’m incorporating all these different love languages or these ways of prayer into the experience of catechesis to give people an opportunity for different types of prayer?”

Emily Mentock: Yeah. Doing something you’re not comfortable with is a great way to learn it. It took me a long time to be comfortable praying from scratch, I guess. And even now, I can reflect on my prayer and kind of notice, “Oh, there’s this influence from this person or from spending time with this religious community or different things like that.” But just also goes to show how it’s personal to me. Our hope for this season is that it will transform your heart, transform your prayer life, and help equip you to teach others to pray as well. Thank you again so much for joining us. This podcast is part of Real + True, a project to unlock the beauty and truth of the Catechism and help people around the world encounter it’s pulsating heart, Jesus Christ. You can find more episodes of this podcast and many other resources to unlock the beauty and truth of the Catechism at realtrue.org. Thanks so much for joining us.