Video Transcript

Emily Mentock: Hi, and welcome back to The Real + True podcast. I am your co-host, Emily Mentock.

Edmund Mitchell: And I’m your other co-host, Edmund Mitchell.

Emily Mentock: And on this podcast, we dive deeper into our mission to unlock the beauty and truth of the Catechism for the next generation; with particular focus on each part of the Catechism that we’re moving through. This season, we’re focusing on pillar four: Christian prayer. And today we’re going to be talking especially about how prayer is the life of the new heart walking daily with Jesus. So, Edmund, maybe you can take us right into the thick of it. What is the life of the new heart?

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah, so this comes from paragraph 2697. It’s that opening sentence: “Prayer is the life of the new heart.” And this portion of this pillar on prayer starts diving into the rhythm of prayer that we should have. And we have these two ends of the spectrum. We have the kind of encouragement from Scripture to pray at all times. And then we also have this encouragement from the Catechism saying that there should be certain rhythms of prayer. There’s one portion where it says—more or less—we cannot pray at all times throughout our life if we don’t set aside specific times for prayer. And so what we’re talking about today is really not just in catechesis or evangelization; just telling people, “Hey, you should just think about praying a lot” or “You should pray every day,” but really helping model a rhythm of a life filled with prayer.

And so that’s what we’re talking about is this new heart that we have in our life in Jesus is an invitation to be in constant communication and relationship with the Father, but also to set aside specific times for prayer and to develop a rhythm of this conversation with God in our daily lives. And that’s something that the Catechism—Actually, we were talking about this before we started recording—has really specific advice and things to tell us about this.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. Which is so helpful. I think that if we’ve ever made the excuse for ourselves or heard someone else say, “I don’t know how to pray. We’re called to pray without ceasing, but what does that mean? I don’t know how to pray.” The Catechism tells us there are all these ways to pray. Actually, “Here are the forms of prayer; here are the expressions of prayer; here are different times throughout your day, through your week, through the year, that you can pray.” And what a gift. So there’s no excuse but to dive into this part of the Catechism. 

But today, we’re going to be talking specifically about some of those daily rhythms in the life of prayer. So we’ve talked in the past few episodes about the ways to pray. We’ve talked about liturgical seasons or different wellsprings you can go to to encounter the Lord in prayer where He is waiting for you. But today—and to really fulfill this invitation of prayer without seizing, like you said—there are specific times that we could do that. So what does that look like in our daily life? And how do we invite people to be aware of all these opportunities to pray with Jesus in their daily life?

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And this is where oftentimes when we’re talking to people about a life in Jesus, or we’re talking about the Gospel or evangelization or believing in Jesus, people can say, “Well, but what does that actually mean? Where does the rubber hit the road? How does this actually apply to my life?” And there’s the things that we believe; in the Creed, there are the Sacraments that we enter into the mystery of Christ, there’s the moral life that gives us guidance on how we pursue what is good and avoid evil. But prayer is a really great place to start often because it’s this reorienting of our heart towards God in this daily walk. 

And the Catechism is really interesting. It talks about how we all have our own preferred personal expressions of prayer, which really highlights this idea that all of us are called to just see the whole world very differently and live constantly in this relationship with God the Father. We have a unique personal way of doing that within certain boundaries, but we all have this personal relationship that takes a shape and should animate our entire lives.

Emily Mentock: I think that’s such an important thing for people to understand. That even though we are all called to do this and the Church offers us these different ways, our personal expression of prayer—because prayer is our personal relationship with God—is going to look different for each of us. And to walk with Jesus in our daily life with a heart of prayer is going to look different for each of us because our daily lives all look different. So it’s important to know the richness of all these traditions of prayer that the Church offers, but to also know and firmly believe that the Holy Spirit will animate those expressions of prayer in unique ways through you that are unique to your relationship with the Lord.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And so what’s really important for catechists and parents and youth ministers and all the different types of evangelists here in this part is just to remember that Pope John Paul II—I think it was, who said—”Modern man listens more willingly to witnesses than teachers. If he does listen to teachers, it’s because they’re first witnesses.” 

So what’s really crucial here when we’re talking about passing on this teaching to other people, is that we’re witnesses like Christ of this life completely animated by prayer. So Jesus is the first model of this. He’s constantly in dialogue with the Father. He also sets aside certain times to pray. But He’s this witness of this. And so we also have to be a witness of what it means to set aside times for prayer.

 Also to be constantly open to a conversation with God in the little moments of our lives. And to really be witnessing a life of prayer that isn’t just memorized or routine, but it reflects this new heart; this different type of relationship with God and other people in the world.

Emily Mentock: Yes. I think you’re so right. To be able to model; to witness to our relationship with the Father by speaking about how we pray and how we choose to pray. So I think it’s helpful to talk about a personal relationship with Jesus. 

I’ve talked about in the past how growing up I was taught more formal, memorized forms of prayer. And it took me until adulthood to learn and understand—from the witness of others and then also the discipline and practice in my own life—what a personal relationship with Jesus would then look like. 

And I think that whatever our own personal expressions of prayer are—for me, I still have great love for those more memorized or structured forms of prayer. I love the Mass. I still on a daily, weekly basis find some of my richest prayer is in a setting like Adoration or at Mass or praying with people. And I always want to share that with others. So I want to invite others to go to Mass with me because that’s what’s important to me.

But I’ve also learned other areas where I am maybe less comfortable, but it’s still important to practice, like praying over someone. Or when a friend is sharing about a really hard time, saying, “Hey, let’s pray. Let’s pray for that. Let me pray for you right here.” Those are things that maybe weren’t how God had planned for my path to a journey for a relationship with Him, but they’re still important for me to witness and share with others in my life.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. Does anyone come to mind for you that throughout your life they were kind of a witness of that daily rhythm of prayer? I know for me it was people who— I can think of one friend in particular who I just never had heard of—journaling. I feel like we talk about journaling so much because it’s impacted me so much. 

But I had a friend who just mentioned little things about, “Oh yeah, I think I still have that in my journal from two months ago; X, Y, Z.” And it just really would strike me that “Man, he is building a history with God. There’s a long history of daily being in conversation and no day is the same.” And it just always stuck with me that witness of his life is really built on this conversation with God that is happening every day and animates his whole life.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. That’s a great thing to reflect on. “Who were those models of prayer?” Or “How did the people around me who I know are authentically pursuing discipleship and a relationship with God? How do they pray? How do I see that?” And use that as inspiration and guidance for your own prayer life that you’re trying to build. 

So, I can think of a priest—who I once hosted another podcast with—who was just a master of spontaneous prayers. So joyful, so trusting, so spirit-led. And at first, it was unlike anything I had ever heard. But over time, he would invite me to also lead prayer before the podcast instead of him always doing it. And I tried to model what I heard from him, but then also allow the Holy Spirit to work through my own heart and my own words in learning to pray the way he did.

Or I have friends who are really, really in tune in their life on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis with a liturgical calendar. They really are strong examples of that liturgical living, especially my friends with younger families; they’re trying to teach their children about the life of the Church. So they’ll do different crafts and activities to teach their children about different saints’ feast days or seasons of the liturgical calendar. 

And then I have other friends who I can think of—when I was just getting used to that personal relationship with Jesus—who would use the word “Jesus” just so freely in their conversations. And I remember—especially after my conversion—hearing that and being almost a little jealous, like, “Oh man, I wish I had a relationship with Jesus where I could just talk about Him like a person; like a friend like that.”

And so then I would go and I would pray and say, “Jesus, help me know you the way this person knows you. I want to know you that way. Help me to know you and love you better.” And so over time,—I would still say it’s something that some people do better than me. But I’ve incorporated their witness of their relationship with God—how they pray; how they live; that new heart in the daily walk of life—into my own life in different ways.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And we touched on this a little bit at the beginning of this pillar. And you can go back there and refresh a little bit on the things the Catechism says about the heart. And prayer takes place in the heart; this place that’s deeper than our emotions or our intellect or our will even.

And so it’s important to remember that when we’re in catechesis or evangelization in these contexts, that what we’re doing is not just an intellectual pursuit. We’re talking about something, we’re presenting a person; we’re presenting Jesus Christ. And what God wants is for the person you’re evangelizing or catechizing, God wants them to respond at this deep level in the heart. 

But many of us who are not familiar with this idea or don’t have an awareness of their interior life, maybe all they kind of understand is their superficial emotions or their thoughts, but they’ve never really grown an awareness at the heart level. This is something where you really have to take people by the hand.

And one thing that I found that’s really helpful is to give people those moments to turn inward and ask themselves, “What is going on in my heart? What’s going on deeper than just my intellect in this moment?” So if you give a talk or you present a lesson or you do something, it is so easy to just say, “You know what? Let’s just be quiet for a second. If you need to close your eyes, whatever you need to do. But I want you to turn your attention and your awareness to the deepest part of you where God communicates to you. And just ask yourself ‘God, what are you saying to me?’ Or ‘What do I want to say to you?’”

And it sounds so simple. And I think when you start walking like this with God all the time, it’s a natural thing, but something as simple as that, I’ve found people really have sometimes pretty extraordinary responses. And I think we get so focused on the work that we are doing in catechesis and evangelization that we forget to leave some open doors for these people we’re talking to to have an encounter with God. And just say, “let’s just spend two minutes and just actually turn inward in prayer.”

And I’ve had situations where I thought the talk was really bad, and I just like, “Let’s spend two minutes.” And then a grown man or adult just starts crying and has this really beautiful experience in just two minutes of turning inward and being aware of that.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. I think you’re so right to make space and allow the Holy Spirit to build that connection between you and God throughout your daily life. So whether it’s after a lesson or in our classrooms, leaving time for that quietness for people to turn their hearts to God and encourage them to listen to what God might be saying to them. 

Or when we’re washing dishes or the first moment that I wake up, in so many rhythms of daily life, we are called to make that space for prayer. And it’s a practice; it’s a habit. Faith and the relationship with God is a gift to us. And the Holy Spirit is what’s powering our expressions of prayer and our desire to turn to the Lord. But it is still a habit.

And I think that there are a lot of tips and advice out there in the world for how to build good habits that we can use to build better routines to then make space for the Holy Spirit to work in our lives. So one thing for me, is a little trick called habit-stacking: “When I do this, then I also do this.” So you kind of link two things in your daily life together. 

So for me, in the morning, a quick way just to remind myself to invite God into my day, it’s “Okay, when I am making coffee; while I’m waiting for the coffee to brew”—I already naturally thinking about what I have going on that day—”I’m going to turn that into a prayer instead of a to-do list or a view of my schedule.”

So when I make coffee in the morning, I am going to invite God to guide my day. And so that’s just a little habit- stacking practice that I learned from a self-help book, but it can help me build the practice of prayer. And then to your point about it being the heart though, that just is giving space for the Holy Spirit to actually work in my heart in that moment. And there’s some mornings where I’m maybe just doing it as routine and other mornings—the ones that I probably appreciate and I’m more proud of—where it really is the right start to my day to have that connection with God.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I love that because when we start talking to people about building this life of prayer, they might try it with some trepidation or they might go all in and say, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to pray an hour every morning.” But as we’ll talk about later, there’s a lot of difficulties in prayer. And I love that advice of habit-stacking you just gave, because it’s this idea of when you’re trying to create a new habit, just do something that you know you’re already going to do. You weren’t going to miss coffee every morning.

Emily Mentock: Right.

Edmund Mitchell: That’s a habit that’s going to happen every time. So if you attach another habit to it, it can be really effective. I think another thing too is—we talked about this last episode—but take advantage of any regular patterns that happen in catechesis or high school youth ministry or OCIA. 

If you meet on a regular basis, are there little mini liturgies or routines that you can put into your lesson every time that help at least that person start to experience that regular, new life of the heart in this prayer relationship with Jesus; what would it  feel like to have that regular feeling?

So I think we talked about that a lot more as you can see in the last episode, but those little things are really important for helping people experience this.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. I think one idea for that would be this section that we are covering talks about the three expressions of prayer: vocal, meditative, and contemplative. Now vocal prayer I think is what most of us are used to. We’re either praying out loud; speaking the prayer, or we’re doing vocal prayer interiorly in our hearts and minds. And that’s kind of what I think most of us think of when we think of prayer. 

There’s also contemplative prayer, which is really a gift. It’s all a grace. To actually reflect on the person of Jesus. And the height of contemplative prayer is people who receive the stigmata and other amazing things because they are just so connected to the person of Jesus and reflecting on who He was in life. And I’m probably giving a really terrible definition that I’m going to edit out of this podcast of what contemplative prayer is.

Edmund Mitchell: No, it’s great! Contemplative prayer is hard to define of the three that you mentioned. It’s just a gift. God just gives this gift of— not communion in the same way of the Eucharist—but there is something that happens.

Emily Mentock: Like a closeness.

Edmund Mitchell:Yeah. It’s beyond our understanding. It’s really cutting away at all the different distractions and you’re finally really contemplating God Himself, which changes us.

Emily Mentock: Right. It is hard to describe, which is why we didn’t make those three expressions of prayer this theme of this podcast. And then there’s the third kind, which is meditative prayer. And I think that this is something that also takes practice to get into because in our life of distraction—which again, we’ll talk about difficulties in prayer in just a moment—but how do we actually meditate on the stories of the Gospel or on Scripture or on different things? 

And I think that in your routine; in your classroom or for catechesis or whatever setting you’re in, one of the things you can do to kind of help introduce people to a different expression of prayer than just vocal prayer—which they probably know— is to give them the habit of meditative prayer. “What was the Gospel reading for that day?” Or “what is a story from the Gospel that’s relevant to the lesson that you’re teaching?” And instead of just talking about it or even praying about it out loud in your group, make space to do meditative prayer on that Gospel reading to give people that practice as well.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. A really great place to go for this if people are new to this idea of meditative prayer—I remember there was one gentleman where he had never done Lectio Divina. And so one of my volunteers ran this little Lectio Divina for adults. And she said, “Okay, so we’re going to read one line of Scripture and then we’re going to ponder this Scripture in our hearts.” And so this guy had never done this before. He is kind of like “Okay.” And then she opens in prayer and then she goes, “Jesus wept.” And then they just sat in silence for three minutes; five minutes, and then stopped. And the woman said, “Well, James, what did you ponder?” And he just said, “Ponder?” He just was like, “Jesus wept.”

And I think we forget if we’ve grown up talking like this and meditating on Scripture like this, we kind of take it for granted. And so one place that comes to mind is there’s a place in the Catechism that talks about the senses of Scripture; there’s different senses of Scripture. 

And so an example is when we watch a movie, there’s what literally happens, then there’s symbolic things that happen, there’s things that speak to us in ways that maybe our friends don’t resonate in different ways. There’s a lot going on below the surface more than just the literal. 

And so that’s a part of the Catechism you could turn to to help someone understand what we mean when we’re saying we’re meditating on Scripture. We’re allowing everything personal about us to react and respond to the text and the literal, but also the other senses of Scripture.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. And I think that it is a habit that’s powered by the Holy Spirit. But building the habit for yourself, for the people that you’re catechizing, the people that you are in community with; your domestic Church at home.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah.

Emily Mentock: This is definitely a habit to try and build into your life. And don’t be discouraged when it takes practice to build that relationship deeper and deeper.

Edmund Mitchell: You mentioned the domestic Church. So this is really important as well in this unit that covers this part of the Catechism. But it talks about how the Christian family is that first place where we encounter this kind of training and education. Education might not be the right word, but this training in a daily prayer life. And I think that’s another thing for us to turn to—both in how we catechize and evangelize—but also to try to equip and empower and encourage families to say, “You also have a responsibility and an opportunity to help your family experience this daily walk of prayer and these experiences, these rhythms, these routines; this new life of the heart.” 

And it should be something that isn’t hidden. I think a lot of times Jesus says, “You should go into your closet and shut the door and pray in private.” But there should be a difference felt in your family; there should be something different about your family. There should be something different about this rhythm of prayer that you experience somehow in each other—or in what you see each other doing, or how you speak—that points to what is done in private or points to that personal prayer. 

So I think that’s really important. It’s a beautiful thing in families.

Emily Mentock: So praying together, and then how do you let that change you? But we know that it’s hard. The Catechism knows that it’s hard. Actually, what I discovered—one of my new favorite sections of the Catechism—is the section talking about the difficulties and temptations in prayer, which I thought was written in just the most relatable way to acknowledge directly “What are some of the challenges that come up in the pursuit of a life of prayer?” 

So I thought we could spend some time on that because I think we all need this at times; on the two difficulties and the two temptations that are named. So for the difficulties, they are distraction and dryness. So have you ever experienced those, Edmund, in your prayer?

Edmund Mitchell: Oh my gosh, yeah. I am Mr. Distraction; Mr. ADHD Distraction. Yeah, for sure. It’s so cool the way the Catechism explains this. It feels like this part of the Catechism is just writing real close to home. All these things are so specific and practical. And even says that distraction is one of the biggest battles in prayer. 

And I think that’s important to say that we don’t hold up Jesus as this model and say, “Hey, it’s going to be so easy, just go do this.” We should talk about how it’s difficult. And I think when we talk about the good parts of prayer, people can get this false impression that it’s not difficult at all. “This is easy. Why are you struggling with this? Why aren’t you already praying an hour a day?” But distractions is such a common—even saints have written about when they were very, very far on the path of holiness, they still got distracted. They still had difficulty in prayer.

Emily Mentock:  Yeah. And the Catechism puts even a bit of a positive spin on it. It acknowledges distraction, but then says, “Let that make you aware of what you’re attached to; what is keeping you from God.” And not all of it has to be terrible sins. 

Maybe you’re distracted by your sins in prayer, but also it can just be distracted by other things in life. And if that’s something that you are struggling consistently and you’re trying to make time for prayer, and you’re thinking about the same thing that you’ve been putting off and you’re using that time to catch up on your to-do list because you’ve been prioritizing other things, let that make you aware of “What in your heart is keeping you from a purity of heart and total attachment and total priority of God in your life?”

Not that all the other things in your life aren’t important, but let your distraction in prayer make you aware of what you’re attached to.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And another thing—especially for people who are new to prayer—is that distractions might not actually be distractions. We’ve talked about this in the past episode, people do not—when they’re first starting out—know how God moves in our heart; how He draws our attention to things. And sometimes what we think is a distraction, we ignore because we go, “No, I think I know what prayer should be like right now and I should be just focusing on Jesus on the Cross. And I keep being distracted thinking about a family member.”

But this is an opportunity to ask God, “God, why am I distracted? Is this because I’m just distracted? Or do you want me to turn my attention to this part of my life?” And that’s a huge thing to explain to people who are beginning in prayer.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. It’s a totally different perspective on distraction than maybe just looking at it from the surface of thinking about other things than direct, perfect, grace-filled contemplation of God.

Edmund Mitchell:

Yeah.

Emily Mentock: And then the other thing that I think—especially for people who are new to prayer or converts to the faith, or people who are coming back after being away from a life of discipleship—is dryness of prayer. So a lot of times, our conversion looks and feels like a big, emotional thing. Which is such a gift. I love it when—even when it’s hard sometimes—when God gets through to my heart and I can feel that overwhelm of emotion, but not all of our prayer is going to be exactly like that.

And dryness is sometimes a difficulty in prayer, where you maybe are not feeling that connection of your heart from God; you’re having a hard time recalling your memories of God being in your life, or you need to soften your heart because there’s something that’s hardening it against whatever God is reaching out to you to do. 

And so the Catechism talks about dryness as another challenge in prayer and says directly that the battle of that requires conversion. So then maybe one antidote to dryness is to ask God to continue to convert your heart; to receive Him and His Holy Spirit for what He wants you to do with your life.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. It’s so helpful. This isn’t just an emotional, inspirational phrase when we say “Prayer is a relationship with God.” It is a really helpful image and model and example to turn back to. Imagine you have a friend who you have these really great experiences with them; you hang out with them and they’re telling jokes and they’re affirming you and they’re complimenting you, and the conversation’s so engaging. And every time you hang out with this person, it’s that way. 

But then one time that doesn’t really happen. You guys just have kind of a normal day together. And if you were to turn to that person and go, “What’s going on? Why aren’t you stimulating me? Why aren’t you making this so fun?” That’s just not a relationship. There’s ebbs and flows. 

And your friend might feel like, “Wait, are you just here from what you get from me? Are you just showing up and hanging out with me because of the things I give you? Or do you want to just be here with me?” There’s going to be seasons of ups and downs.

I remember one saint in particular saying that those times of dryness is God trying to draw us even closer to Him and not be so attached to what we might get out of prayer; He’s starting to draw us deeper into Him. So it’s a positive thing when we start experiencing a little bit of dryness.

Emily Mentock: Yes. So I love the positive spin on both distraction and dryness. Something that I think all of us battle in our prayer; in pursuit of a life of prayer. And then the Catechism also names two temptations, and one of them is just a lack of faith. You want to explain a little bit? Like what does the Catechism mean that a temptation in prayer is a lack of faith?

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. So again, the relationship motif. When we’re talking about faith in God, we’re not just talking about what we mean by trust in a friend. But it’s helpful to think of it a little bit that way in what we’re talking about here. 

So when you show up to have a dialogue with another person, there has to be some trust that this person’s going to communicate back to you; that they’re listening. There has to be a foundational trust. You’ll never know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you show up to talk to someone, that they’re going to be listening to you or that they’re going to talk back or how the conversation’s going to go. So that initial thing when you actually first show up in the presence of another person is you have to extend faith.

You have to extend faith that this person cares about you enough to talk to you, that they’re going to listen, that they’re present, and that they’re there. And so this temptation in prayer is kind of one of the foundational ones because if we show up in prayer and we’re already like, “Alright, I’m just here in my room alone. I don’t know if this is even doing anything.” That is a temptation. 

And we can have this vigilance of our heart to try to remind ourselves and say, “God, I need grace to believe; to have faith that you are here listening, that you want to dialogue with me, that you want to have a relationship or prayer with me in a very similar way to what Jesus had.” So it’s extending that faith in God who wants to be present to communicate with us; to be in relationship with us.

Emily Mentock: Yeah. That’s a really great explanation. I also love the emphasis from the Catechism that you are not entering into relationship with just another friend, but with God. And that lack of faith might mean maybe we’re forgetting that God is who God is. Maybe we—in our human ways—might think of it as just talking to another person, but it’s God; the creator of the whole universe. God who made you; who wills everything into existence. 

And the Catechism says sometimes in our prayer a temptation might be to enlist the Lord as an ally, but our heart remains presumptuous. Instead of saying, “God, it is all you. It is all you.” And who I’m coming to in my prayer with enough faith; the faith that we’re called to and are sometimes tempted to come up short of, is faith in God the Father, and not just another person to have a conversation with.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I love that. So what was the other temptation after lack of faith?

Emily Mentock: The other temptation is—okay, this is a fancy word—I think it’s Acedia.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah, I think so.

Emily Mentock: Acedia. That’s what the Catechism says. It’s basically a bit of a laziness in our prayer; that we actually have to struggle in our life of prayer and in the life of our relationship with God. It’s not always going to come easy. And sometimes we can be a bit too lax and be careless with our prayer, or careless with how we’re speaking to God, or careless but going about our days without engaging God in our lives. And so this is another temptation in our prayer; to just kind of be a bit lazy about it.

Edmund Mitchell:  Yeah. And again, to go back to the relationship analogy here. Think of a dating relationship. It can be really easy to just be really engaged in them and all of these things, but life happens and things aren’t always as positive or intense. And so then there’s these moments where the only thing really motivating you to maybe show up in a conversation or to extend love or trust is that you have a responsibility to do it, or you just have faith that you should be doing it. 

I’m thinking of it almost as depositing money into a savings account, in a way. It’s like, “God, I don’t feel this today. But I know that if I keep showing up, I have faith that you’re going to do something with these little acts that I’m doing.

And so today, I don’t know if I’m feeling anything, and I’m tempted to be lazy about this. But I’m going to keep showing up and putting these little moments in front of you, and I know that you’re going to be”—I don’t want to say that it’ll pay off, but it’s like “I know that I’m investing in this relationship. Whether it benefits me right now in this moment or not, I know I want to be investing into this relationship.”

Emily Mentock: And what the Catechism says that helps with is then it keeps us from getting discouraged. I love its description that “The humble are not surprised by their distress. It leads them to trust more.” So when you struggle in prayer, don’t be surprised.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah.

Emily Mentock: Because it’s going to be hard. And just keep asking God for more. It just reminds me of so many lives of the saints that I’ve read and hear them talk about how they’re constantly asking God to convert their hearts; they’re calling themselves poor sinners or saying they’re the worst. And maybe some of us might write that off as a false humility or something like that. 

But I think for the saints; those who really are on that path of holiness, they just properly know that they need more from God and they accept that it’s going to be a struggle and ask God for the grace to help them persevere.

Edmund Mitchell: I’m thinking, “What are some of our practical takeaways maybe to kind of start wrapping this up?” Because we’ve talked about some pretty big things, and it’s kind of repeated throughout this section of the Catechism; this composure of heart; awareness of our heart. That there are times we need to pray—there’s times we should set aside specifically—but it should animate and change our entire life. What are some other practicals that we could just highlight that we feel like would be most helpful for people?

Emily Mentock: Yeah. So I think one of the biggest ones for me in this unit was emphasis on that daily walk of life. Let’s not ever sell ourselves short of what we’ve been invited into, which is a relationship that is constant; that is ever present in our lives; that at any moment we can turn to. And the Church offers so many ways to pray that can help us pursue that. Back to that line from the beginning, that we can’t pray constantly without praying at specific moments. 

So I think both in our own lives and as our invitation to those that we are catechizing, keep that the standard. The standard isn’t that you go to Mass or you do morning prayer or night prayer or check the box of an Examination of Conscience. It is to have a daily walk of life with Jesus.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. And I think I would just highlight those two temptations and two difficulties. And we’re called to witness to the beauty of a life in this daily rhythm of prayer with Jesus, but also to talk about the realities of it; in that it’s not something we just wake up one morning and do. We need God’s grace to help us in this. 

It’s something we have to hold loosely. We can’t grasp onto this so tightly and be like, “I have to be doing this this way every day.” We have to be open to the Holy Spirit and how God is going to lead us on this adventure of prayer. But then to talk about those temptations and difficulties really roots this all in a very realistic witness to this life of prayer in Jesus.

Emily Mentock: Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of The Real + True podcast. You can find more episodes from season four and past episodes covering the other three pillars of the Catechism on our website at realtrue.org. And if you like this podcast, share it with a friend or subscribe and follow along anywhere that you can listen to your podcasts. Real + True is on a mission to unlock the beauty and truth of the Catechism for the modern world and help others encounter its pulsating heart: Jesus Christ. 

Thanks for listening today, and we’ll see you next time. Bye!