Video Transcript

Edmund Mitchell: Hi everyone and welcome back to the Real+True podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts Edmund Mitchell, and today we’re having a great conversation with one of my good friends, Mari Pablo. Mari graduated from Franciscan University with a double major in Theology and Psychology, also holds a Master’s of Theology from the Augustine Institute. She worked in youth ministry for over 15 years. She was a youth minister in New Orleans and a high school theology teacher in Miami for years. And she’s currently serving parishes and universities across the country, working with The Evangelical Catholic. She’s been involved in lots of things. She speaks at Steubenville Conferences, she’s been involved in lots of different retreats and ministries and programs, things with Ascension Press. So just really grateful to have Mari and I’ve known Mari since college. And thanks for being here, Mari.

Mari Pablo: Thanks for having me, brother.

Edmund Mitchell: When we were thinking about, um, this topic for this episode, I thought of you immediately because the topic for today’s episode is talking about tough moral issues or just tough, tough topics in general in evangelization. And a lot of times, when we’re trying to pass on the faith or evangelize or teach often even just like about some of the more foundational doctrines, like these tough issues will come up and oftentimes people will just kind of throw these at you. Like, what about these things? Um, and I’ve thought like you have such a calm and like inviting and warm way of dealing with, not dealing with people, but working with people and explaining the faith. And I’ve seen you do this before, so I just wanted to talk about that a little bit and maybe open up with a question about when was the first time you had any type of encounter with the Catechism? And it could be good or bad, could be like what was, what was like kind of your first encounter with the Catechism?

Mari Pablo: I mean, honestly it was when we were in school together, we transferred to Steubenville together. Um, I had had a big conversion and you know, grew up Catholic but really wanted to understand the “whys.” And I think a lot of Hispanics, we’re culturally Catholic and like my parents are super faithful people and they’re awesome, but when it comes to the explaining and they wouldn’t be able to like quote the Catechism or like tell you all the details. And so when we went to school of Franciscan, we started going to class and we love the catechism there. So that’s where I think, I mean actually I think we read the whole thing. Um, so it’s just like highlighting…

Edmund Mitchell: We had to take a test. We basically had take a test on whether or not we read the whole thing.

Mari Pablo: Yeah, it was really, that’s what the test was. No, but just every single class was kind of focusing on a different portion and that’s when I started diving in. I was like, oh man, this is actually really good. Like this makes sense and this, or sometimes this doesn’t make sense. And I would ask questions to our professors and we would have conversation in the library about different things. And so that’s when I started kind of diving in. And I do remember that you were probably the biggest nerd of the Catechism even at school, so cool to have you here.

Edmund Mitchell: So what, so then going from that experience to then, um, I wanna focus a little bit on you teaching morality. Because like that’s a very specific subject. Um, what was your experience going from like, okay, I’m reading the Catechism to now I’m trying to, to teach sometimes complicated issues, I mean to high schoolers.

Mari Pablo: Everything that I did at Franciscan in learning and even my Masters, I was always thinking, how can this help me explain the faith and like explain the why’s. Miami is a hard place to grow up sometimes. And I was, the second I became a teacher, I was super excited to teach morality. That was the one course that I really wanted to teach once I figured out I wanted to be a teacher, which I didn’t originally. Um, and so it was such an important thing. So how can we get this information and how can we explain it to these teens that don’t find any of this relative to their lives that don’t, that think a lot of this is a joke, that think this is outdated. How can I get this information and apply it in a way that they understand the importance of this for their, how can I explain to teenagers that what God teaches about morality will make them the happiest and freest and give them the best life possible?

Edmund Mitchell: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. That’s often like, this just seems like a random rule or it seems like a random out of bounds, like a boundary line that I don’t understand.

Mari Pablo: If they don’t see it as important for their lives, they’re not gonna care.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah.

Mari Pablo: Honestly.

Edmund Mitchell: I mean, I think people have a list of what they think are the most common, you know, sticky point doctrines for people. What, what was your experience or were there anyones that were surprised you that that people, uh, that high schoolers or it could, could not just be high schoolers, but just in your experience, I know you have a wide range of experience in ministry. Yeah. Like what are some of the sticky doctrinal teachings for people?

Mari Pablo: I mean, I think they’re kind of obvious, right? A lot of things have to do with sexual morality, like a lot of it, um, especially with like same-sex attraction, um, later on in teaching, like dealing with transgender and all of that was definitely a big topic. Abortion was always a big thing. Um, sometimes like death penalty, euthanasia, like all of these were big topics, but for me, so we taught sacraments first and then morality. I spent the whole first semester building a relationship with my students and I would tell them, you can disagree with me and you can have a different thing, but you have to know how to explain your why. So you have to be able to tell me, okay, I don’t agree with you because of this, this, or this, or I believe in this because this, this or this. So the first week of class I would ask them like simple things like why are you Catholic? Or why are you whatever religion you are, right? Even though I taught in a Catholic school, some people were other religions. And I would say, well, why are you those things? And I would say, if your answer is because your parents are Catholic, that’s a sad answer and you’re almost legal, like you’re almost 18 and you need to grow up and figure out what you believe in, right? So I started with them like kind of, I asked them to create their own creed and write up like what the beliefs are in their life. Like if they had to create a life, a mission statement for their life, what would it be? So throughout doing all this, I’m getting to know who they are. They’re getting to know their identity, they’re figuring out different things and I’m helping them see like, you can come to me with different opinions and you can come to me with different things, but please do your research and know what you’re saying. Right? So then we got to the portion of morality and when we got to those high, you know, heated questions, it wasn’t that heated because there was level respect that I spent four months building, right? So like it was much easier and much better for them to be able to say. And I, and if people got heated, I was always just like, whoa, whoa, hold on. Remember one one day it was the abortion got, the conversation got a little bit intense and I was like, everyone, sit down. Everyone breathe. If you can’t communicate your words in a respectful manner, if you can’t lower your voice, then we can’t have this conversation. Right? And I would tell them in life, when you get out of this room, you’re gonna have conversations with people that disagree with you. And if you lose your temper, they’re not gonna listen. And you could be right, and you could be telling them, you could be saying the most brilliant thing in this world, you could be Einstein, but if Einstein was yelling and if Einstein didn’t know how to communicate, Einstein wouldn’t be Einstein, right? Like we would’ve, it would’ve been lost in the way that it was communicated. There were heated conversations and there were things of passion, but for me that was just a good day in class because it was an opportunity to hear people out and understand why they were so passionate.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. I love, I love that approach of, well what do you believe? And can you explain it? And yeah, I feel like often when let’s say you’re with, you know, you’re at work and some coworker overhears that you’re Catholic and then they just approach you about some, you know, random topic that they disagree with, um, it can be easy for that just to become an impersonal, like, oh, this is just this idea way over here that we’re debating and it’s really easy for someone who disagrees with it to just kind of fire holes in it. Um, impersonally, but then when you ask them, well what do you believe? It’s kind of like, Hey, if I’m gonna talk about this, it needs to be risky for both of us. Like we both have to have some skin in the game about what we actually believe about the world and about God, you know, God, whether we believe in God or not. And it kind of forces it to be a little more personal. What have you found has been the relationship between, um, a personal relationship with Jesus and then explaining some of the more difficult moral doctrines. And what I mean by that is, I think oftentimes in schools or in churches or even just like when we explain the teachings, we just, we just think, okay, someone’s asking about a pro-life issue. Um, the Church’s teaching on, on abortion. I’ll just focus on that and forget something that you mentioned briefly is like, do they love Jesus Christ? Like do they even know who Jesus is? Do they even trust his Church? Um, so maybe you could expound a little on that about the importance of that. Uh, especially in the context of when we’re explaining tough moral doctrines.

Mari Pablo: The reality is that oftentimes students, some of them don’t have relationship with Jesus. And that’s a part of what I’m building. I don’t dive into anything in morality without spending two weeks on moral relativism. Cause I say if, if we can’t agree that truth exists, and that someone’s right then nothing in the rest of this course is gonna matter. Right? So I start off by that point and then once we get to the point of saying like, someone has to be right, and then I’ll say, I believe with my whole being that God is the objective truth, right? And we all agree and I’ll get to a point that I’m like, because we’re in a Catholic school, right? We’re gonna agree there that this is true, right? And then from understanding there has to be a judge of truth. And even with abortion or things that are complicated, I don’t hit that up until I spend a lot of time talking about you have value and you have dignity. And this dignity begins in the moment of conception. And there’s multiple times, because I think sometimes they’ll see these things as these rules are because they want, like the Church and God want me to be miserable and they don’t want me to have a good time and they want me to just like do whatever. And I need to slowly, everything that I do is so like little baby steps, right? So like truth is real and you are created good and you are loved and you are seen and you are known by God and he knows you better than you know yourself. And that desires and the question that you have are good, right? So you start building and you start building and then you get to a point. And this is what been something that’s super helpful for me when I teach morality. Every single commandment and every little subsection of the commandments, Cuz I would spend like a month on commandment five and a month on commandment six and nine, right? So for every subsection I would say, okay, the Church teaches this. Now let’s put God and Church aside and let’s look at this from a psychological and scientific perspective and a rational perspective. And I would break it down and I would bring in different studies that are done. And I would show from a secular purpose way, right? How what the Church teaches can be understood from other aspects. So I think the relational, relationship with Jesus is absolutely important, but sometimes it comes as they as we’re breaking down their doubts and breaking down their hesitancies and breaking down their own walls of this is stupid and I don’t agree, right? So in the process of explaining and in the process of reassuring, like you are loved, you are seen, you are known, like just kind of reiterating that over and over and over again, then it opens up a possibility and an opportunity for relationship. Um, I mean obviously you start off with the first commandment, so like, put God above what else? Like why and why is this important? And you know, all of us talk about, everyone says, “OMG” all the time in high school. So why is the name of God important, right? Like, so just kind of breaking it down. And even with that, I would tell my students, okay, “oh my God,” like you called his name. What do you wanna tell him? And they would roll their eyes like, are you serious? Like, okay, he’s listening. Do you wanna say I love you? Do you wanna say hi? Like, what do you, you know what I mean? Like, what do you wanna do? And so all these little things hopefully leads to a relationship with God. And, and that is at the root of everything. And I’ve, you know, I’ve had students that are, that struggle with same-sex attraction and I’ve had students that have come out to me and I’ve, I’ve cried with students and um, you know, I’ve recognize that some teachings are difficult. Uh, and I always tell them, like, and I tell all my students, at the end of the day, whatever you do, like obviously I want you to live a moral life. And obviously I want you to do as the Lord asks, because I do believe that it’ll give you the most freedom and the most joy at the end of the day, though, even if you’re living a life that’s not moral, don’t stop talking to Jesus. Like, don’t stop praying. Like even if you’re living in sin, like God is still, you’re distant, you’re more distant. I’m not gonna lie. Like you’re more distant, but don’t stop talking to Jesus. Like, don’t stop trying to have a relationship with him. So I think those things have helped and that’s, it was a long way of answering it, but I don’t think that was an easy question to ask because

Edmund Mitchell: No, no, that was great…

Mari Pablo: It’s like, it’s a complicated thing.

Edmund Mitchell: I’ll ask the hard question, you know? Yeah. I’ll ask the hard questions cuz you can handle it. I love what you say, I hope people that were listening could pick up on the fact that you took a doctrine or, or you, you went back to first principles, kind of like you, the way the Church talks about is that there’s a hierarchy of truth and you know, this was my experience as well, is someone comes to you and just says, why can’t women be priests? And it’s like, well first of all, do you believe in God or not? Yeah. Like, and then let’s start with, let’s start with um, why can’t women be priest? Like we could go back one step and go like, do you understand what the priesthood is? But before that it’s like, do you even know what a sacrament, like could you understand what a sacrament is? And then before that it’s like, do you understand who Jesus and the Church, like what, what, who Jesus is and what the Church is? And then before that, like the Trinitarian nature of God, like there’s a hierarchy to truth, which doesn’t mean that some truths are, are, we’re able to just dismiss, but it means that like all the truths are built upon other truths. And that’s really important. Like, you know, you had said like you start your class with can we even talk about truth? Like what is truth before we go any further? I think that’s so important. Um, it’s so important cuz it can be, it can be easy to get distracted by maybe a loud or antagonistic voice that’s like, this makes zero sense and not take the time to kind of go deeper into these things that the Church is saying. You know, even the way the Catechism is written there, it’s written with this idea of this hierarchy of truths in mind and it keeps repeating these more foundational truths that everything else hinges on the teachings about God, man, the Church, Jesus, the sacraments.

Mari Pablo: And it was interesting cuz I, I would even show, cause I would do all that and then I would show either The Giver or Avatar as movies and we would dissect them and like, where’s moral relativism in this? And all these different things. So just getting things, I think people, the secular world is also longing for truth. And even through music and through movies and through all these different things, we can see the desire for truth. And I always joke around, I was like, the most stolen book every single year is the Bible. And that’s funny, right? But it does show that like we’re all longing for truth, right? So that’s like the connection that needs to be addressed.

Edmund Mitchell: Well, and the other thing in your answer that I wanted to make sure that people pick up on is that you mentioned sharing the wisdom of the teaching even apart from God. And we can’t always do that with every Church teaching. And we have to be careful that we don’t make it seem.. Yeah. And we, and we have to be careful that we don’t make it seem like, well this is just the belief in God is just a superstition and these are helpful regardless. Like, but that does help them trust the teachings. Like when you can show some examples of how there is wisdom in this teaching and then also help them to trust Jesus more like, like a teaching on abortion or marriage or these things for a lot of people don’t seem like they’re connected to Jesus, but to be connecting them to, and like introducing them to the person and the personality of Jesus so that they start, they begin trusting Jesus and trusting the Church teaching. Do you feel like that’s true?

Mari Pablo: Absolutely. I think that it’s so important to like get the background and get the understanding and get the reason, even get testimonies from people. I’ll never forget. We were teaching on the death penalty at one point, and a student, not in my class, but another class, her dad was on death row and someone lost it and was like, they should die, and da da da, da da. And the teacher knew the situation, but she was like, you know, if you, if you ever want to talk about it, you can in class, but I’m not gonna ask you to. And that day she decided, you know what? I am gonna share my story. So she gave her testimony about how heartbreaking and how horrible it is to have her father on death row. And she just broke down crying and she came and spoke to my class and to other classes. And again, these things, I think we forget that people are people, and I think sometimes we have this idea of certain things and it’s like, oh, it’s not a big deal, or this is not related to me. When you hear testimonies, when you see, and you’re bringing it out to like a human level, you know? People respond and see that what the Church, again, what the Church is saying is so good. And I guess I, I wish that I could just say, which I do, right? Every single thing that the Church teaches in the Bible. So I’ll just be like, oh, it’s here. And I wish I could say what’s in the Bible within the Catechism. So children believe it, but they’re not. Right. Like, it’s like, okay, that’s nice, but they want the big picture. And the big picture exists. And so when we’re able to share and bring it down to their level and explain, things make sense, I’ll never forget that class. And the guy that said the comments apologized to the girl whose father was in death row, and it just, it just became way more alive, you know?

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. What would you say, what, what other role or could you speak a little more to on the importance of a personal witness when dealing with some of these issues? Often I think people feel a little inadequate because they’re like some of these tough doctrinal issues, teachings that people have difficulty with. I might not have an experience of that situation. Um, but I would still encourage people that personal witness is really important, that there’s a difference that while like we could have the perfect video of Mari perfectly explaining, you know, the Church’s teaching on contraception, but it can’t replace, you know, you know your coworker, you know the teens in your class, you know, you know your niece or nephew. Um, you can’t, you can’t really, you can’t replace that personal witness.

Mari Pablo: Absolutely. I mean obviously I taught all the commandments. There were some that I had testimonies for and some that I didn’t and I wouldn’t tell my students like the things that I did. I would say it in a way that, you know, made it relatable, but I wasn’t giving details. Right? So, and those things were important. Those things were very important. And the second that I hit up things that affected me or impacted me, they’re, they perked up and they responded. And because they need to know, my students need to know that I love them and that I respect ’em and that I hear them and that I can relate to them. Um, and that’s where those stories are gonna be so important. And so even me sharing, like I grew up Catholic and I didn’t really understand this until this happened in my life, right. Or this happened or, and then the ones that I didn’t relate to, right? I would find stories or songs that related in a way and kind of showed it. So it was so important. It’s, it’s very important.

Edmund Mitchell: It’s kind of like, what I’m thinking is you might not have a specific personal testimony of, you know, one of the commandments that someone’s struggling with, but, but you could also share, you know? Yeah. I could see how this is a difficult Church teaching and I also used to struggle with this Church teaching. I think sometimes when we’re talking to people about the faith or we’re called to walk with someone closer to Jesus or to understand the Church teaching, there’s like this pressure that I, I need to never reveal to them that I struggled to believe some of these things or that some, some teachings were difficult or and some difficult, some teachers might be difficult intellectually, uh, and not with my will like to, to avoid them. And then it might be the opposite. Like I understand it intellectually, but this was hard for me to follow like in my daily life. And I think that like those personal testimonies are really, can be really helpful.

Mari Pablo: I also think I’ve apologized as a member of the Church because there have been members of the Church that have done a really bad job and haven’t been welcoming and my students have been really hurt by comments by the older generation or people that I thought they were more righteous and that’s not okay, right? So I also get very passionate about like, I’m sorry if the Church hasn’t been as welcoming as we should and I’m sorry if you know, this priest in confession said this to you and you left crying and never came back because you felt so judged, right? So it’s also recognizing as a Church we need to do better at like loving and you know, there are some people that will be like, oh my gosh, Mari, like why do you love teens so much? And I could never, and I mean I get that cuz I could, I could never teach you know, seven year olds. I get it, but at the end of the day, like what the Church teaches so beautiful and so good and if we really believe it, then we’re gonna live it. You know, I heard a story of a teenager that once said like, my grandmother is the most religious person in the world if I like, but she’s horrible and she’s super mean. And if that’s what Catholics are supposed to be like, I don’t want to be that. Right? So like, the way that we live and the, I mean, we can talk about morality all we want. We need to, we need to live it out and know how to explain it and talk about it in a way that’s loving and good.

Edmund Mitchell: Yeah. As we’re, as we’re closing out, I wanna maybe one last question is just to be very practical for someone who you know is at work and there’s a coworker or a family member, I’m thinking of a situation where someone just approaches you and sometimes this will happen as, as you’re just being Catholic in the world. They know you’re Catholic, they hear about something and they just like walk over and are like, you know what? I’ve always thought it was really dumb that the Church teaches X, y, or Z. Like, and what, what’s your, like, what’s your like quick advice for somebody who kind of finds themselves in those situations and just freezes up and just has no clue like what to do?

Mari Pablo: Take a breath. And take a step back. So whatever the topic is kind of, I would ask them a question back. Well, oh, like, well why do you find that difficult? Or like, what is at the root of what you’re trying to say? Or you know, just kind of like, thank you for sharing. Like thank you for asking that question. That’s a really good question. If it’s something that you know and feel confident about, you can try responding. But what Edmund and I were talking about, go back. So if they ask about abortion, don’t start at abortion. Start at like, everyone has dignity, right? And like break it down from the get-go. And if it’s something that you don’t know, you could literally don’t pretend please don’t be a heretic, right? Like just literally say, yeah, that’s a really good question. And I like, let’s look up the answer together and let’s see what the Church says. Or you know what, that’s a really good question. I wanna, I’m gonna get back to you on that cause I do want have some things, but I wanna be able to express myself. But thank you. Like always say like, thank you so much for your question. Thank you so much for coming to me. I would love to dive into this. That’s a really good point. Or you know what, that is a hard thing to understand and just kind of break it down. But if they’re coming blaring, kind of take a deep breath and respond. Now I will say I have been in conversations where the person comes in super intense and super whatever, and I’ve tried being calm and they just don’t listen and they are not receptive and they are not well. And I’ve had to literally end the conversation with this is clearly going nowhere, so I’m gonna walk away now, but I’m praying for you now. Those are more strangers that didn’t know me, right? Um, so there are situations where people are coming to attack and they’re not willing to listen and that’s a different category and that could even be a family member, right? And so being able to kind of assess the situation, take a deep breath, ask Lord to help you and try responding lovingly and try having that conversation. Um, but also recognize that a conversation is two way. And so we need to kind of know, but respond lovingly, do your research and be patient and break it down.

Edmund Mitchell: That’s great advice. That’s great advice. And, and people who are fans of real and true. I think, um, I would add that your homework after the fact is go to the Catechism, find the areas that are related to what, what you know, your coworker, whoever asking you about. And don’t just, don’t just read it, read it looking for the connection to Jesus. Like ask yourself, what does this have to do with Jesus? And what will happen is then you’ll find as you’re answering that question, you’ll answer the question, what does this have to do with God’s view of the human person with the Church and with God’s plan for us, God’s plan for the human person. But like, I found that be really helpful. And even in the obscure parts of the Catechism where you’re like, man, I’m not exactly sure what this has to do with Jesus. You can trace it back. If you go to earlier parts of, of that section or that pillar, you can find what this has to do with Jesus. And that can be really helpful. Mari, thank you so much for being here. Where can people go to find more of your work or find things that you’re involved in or excited about?

Mari Pablo: I’m not very creative. You can just go to maipablo.com. m a r i p a b l o.com. And then Instagram maripablo25.

Edmund Mitchell: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. Everyone, you can listen to the Real+True podcast on all of your favorite podcast apps. And you can also go to realtrue.org to find the podcast, other videos that we’re making on the Catechism and also resources and discussion guides that we have available there. Thank you so much for listening. Uh, feel free to drop questions or responses in the comments if you’re watching this on YouTube. And we look forward to meeting you and, and you listening to another episode next time on the Real+True Podcast.