Proclamation
The connection between happiness and relationships

In this podcast, Emily and Edmund discuss the challenges and strategies for presenting the Church's teachings on morality effectively to a modern audience, and the significance of approaching catechesis and evangelization with a focus on God's love and the invitation to a relationship with Christ.
(00:00) In the opening of the podcast Edmund and Emily set up the discussion of the third pillar of the catechism, focusing on how to present the Church’s teachings on morality effectively. They emphasize the importance of approaching catechesis and evangelization with an understanding of God’s love and the invitation to a relationship with Christ. They explore the structure of this pillar, highlighting its emphasis on living in Christ rather than just following rules. The conversation underscores the significance of contextualizing moral teachings within the broader framework of the Gospel. By examining the structure of the Catechism, they emphasize the importance of the order and how it contributes to sound catechesis.
(10:48) Edmund and Emily emphasize the significance of understanding foundational truths before presenting specific moral teachings. They discuss the importance of recognizing that humans are created for goodness and love, emphasizing God’s invitation to happiness through beatitude. They stress the importance of meeting their audience where they are at by authentic listening and understanding their perspectives to effectively catechize and evangelize. Drawing from Sherry Waddell’s insights in Forming Intentional Disciples, they highlight the importance of the spiritual journeys of belonging, believing, and behaving in the context of catechesis. They also discuss the approach taken in their videos. The discussion encourages catechists to approach teaching with a deep understanding of the foundational truths of faith and the context of their audience’s experiences.
(19:31) Emily and Edmund discuss practical ways to respond when individuals react critically to Church teachings. The hosts share insights from their experiences and discussions with church ministers. Drawing from the catechism, they highlight the importance of starting with the foundational belief that humans are created for goodness and are inherently attracted to it. They emphasize the significance of meeting people where they are and accompanying them through dialogue to effectively address their concerns. The discussion encourages catechists and parish leaders to focus on understanding the underlying beliefs of those we are catechizing and evangelizing and connecting them back to Church teaching.
(26:54) In the closing of the podcast, Emily and Edmund encourage listeners to study the third pillar of the Catechism. They also suggest reading Pope Francis’ “Evangelii Gaudium” (The Joy of the Gospel), highlighting its relevance in understanding contemporary evangelization. The hosts emphasize the document’s incorporation of recent church teachings, its focus on modern contexts and audiences, and its discussions of the challenges and temptations within the Church’s evangelization efforts. They invite feedback from listeners, aiming to plan future episodes to address their needs.
Proclamation
Explanation
Connection
Edmund Mitchell
Hi everyone, and welcome back to The Real and True Podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts, Edmund Mitchell.
Emily Mentock
And I’m your co-host, Emily Mentock.
Edmund Mitchell
And on the Real and True Podcast, we’ll be exploring our mission, unlocking the Catechism for the modern world. And we want to help you be equipped to use the Catechism for evangelization and catechesis. So we often have, uh, interviews with experts, but sometimes we have podcasts like this, Emily, which I’m really excited about. We’re gonna talk about an important topic, uh, on the third pillar of the catechism, but maybe you could tell us a little more about what we’re talking about today.
Emily Mentock
Yeah, so I guess we’re the experts for today!
Not that we know everything, but we are really excited to share with you a little bit more about how
we’re approaching pillar three of the catechism. So we’re in season three of the podcast and in the project we’ve made our way through pillar one and pillar two of the Catechism. Next up, pillar three. And we really want to share some considerations for catechists or parish ministers for presenting this part of Church teaching with practical examples, real life experiences from your time in ministry, from the feedback that we’ve gotten from our audience as Real + True over two years now so that you can unlock the beauty and truth of our faith for the next generation and use these videos if they’re helpful to you.
Pillar three in particular, I know a lot of people express that the Church teachings on morality can be difficult. Like, do you agree with that? That’s kind of like what you’ve heard as well?
Emily Mentock
Yeah I’ve been saying that, you know, I think pillar three of the Catechism is what gives the Catechism its reputation as a rule book, you know, or a textbook. It’s things that you’re made to study and memorize. There’s certain parts of this where it is saying, for a joyful Christian life, here’s what that life looks like, here’s what it doesn’t. But that doesn’t mean it’s actually a rule book. And I think that for those of us who want to teach the truths of our faith, there is so much wisdom, so many beautiful truths that the Church has to offer in the section of the Catechism. But we just need to find a way to present it for the next generation in the world that we live in today. So even though there might be a lot of controversial topics that we hear that are connected to some of the truths in this pillar, a lot of the pillar…It’s funny, I think in the last episode we talked about how the Church is in a good place, that because of the Catechism we’re debating a little bit less of what we believe and more focus on how we can share it.
But I think there are still some debates about what we believe and debates that go on in the public forum, like Twitter and things like that.
Some heated discussions. And I think that this section of the Catechism can bring a lot of much needed truth and clarity and presenting what does the Church actually teach about these topics? And we want to explore today, how do we present dogma and doctrine without making it seem like rules that compromise on the joy and mercy and invitation of the Gospel and life in Jesus?
Edmund Mitchell:
I feel like it’s tempting to be on one of two extremes, either to lean so heavily on the Church teaches, or the Church teaches not to do these certain behaviors or sins or the opposite extreme, which is like, “Well, let’s just like not talk about those things ’cause they’re very difficult and they make people upset”, you know? Which really brings us, as we’re setting this up, what it is that we’re actually doing. I hope a lot of the people listening are catechists or church ministers or parish ministers or parents who are tasked with passing on the faith to others and catechizing, which is part of the process of evangelization. So I think it’s always good to start with like, what is it that we’re trying to accomplish?
Edmund Mitchell:
And it’s the same with Real + True, like we’re trying to do evangelization and catechesis and like, how do we do that? I think we had a conversation about this recently, Emily, where we were just talking about how we were reminding ourselves that there is a better way to do catechesis and a worse way. And that it really comes down to are we following the method of how God reveals Himself to man? And when we don’t, we can do less well at catechesis and evangelization.
Emily Mentock:
Yeah, absolutely. If catechesis just means teaching the truths of our faith, then there’s better ways and less good ways that we can do that. And the U.S. bishops have put this emphasis on evangelizing catechesis. So maybe we kind of send a moment briefly in this pillar of the Catechism, so that we avoid over-emphasizing specific rules or doctrines in a way that doesn’t make sense for the larger picture of our faith. What does good evangelization and catechesis look like?
Edmund Mitchell:
Yeah, the documents like Evangelii Gaudium that we’ll talk about later, and then Evangelii Nuntiandi and Catechesi Tradendae talk about this. And it’s really beautiful that right now we’re having this kind of renewal in the Church of an understanding of evangelization and catechesis, and even in the way we make the scripts and videos for Real + True and the way that we can do really do catechesis and evangelization really well come from the Church teaching and the Church documents on this. And just a few things: I would encourage people to read this book, The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Craft of Catechesis by Barbara Morgan. And I’m bad with this guy’s last name; this gentleman, Pierre de Cointet.
Emily Mentock:
Cointet, yeah. It’s really French.
Edmund Mitchell:
So if you want to go deeper into this, but just really quickly, and we’ve talked about this as a theme throughout the podcasts episodes, but God created us for love; He has a plan for us to be in relationship with Him; this relationship of love. Evangelization is that process of inviting people into that relationship of love. And evangelization is always the context for catechesis, which is handing on what the Church has received. The primary aim of catechesis is not intellectual knowledge, but intimacy with Jesus. And the image that came to mind is imagine Jesus standing personally in front of one individual, and we’re called to help Jesus give this invitation to this person. And so imagine in a way, maybe Jesus can’t talk, but He’s given you a message, and then you’re responsible for going to this person and repeating that invitation.
But you’re not just repeating the invitation, you’re also describing the guy who’s saying it. You’re like, “Jesus is like this.” And then you’re describing what a life would look like if they accept that teaching. And that when we start talking about the third pillar of the Catechism, we’re talking about that stage in divine revelation of “What must I do? How do I act differently if I accept this invitation to be in relationship with God and Jesus?” I think a common mistake people make is just focusing on the intellectual agreement to the teaching as opposed to always putting it in the context of what the Church calls this evangelizing catechesis, not just intellectual catechesis in some way. So God reveals himself and then we respond to the love. So we’re not just teaching a philosophical or political view, we’re inviting people into a relationship with a person.
Emily Mentock:
Right. And that fits exactly where we are in the Catechism too, right? So the first two pillars, if I remember correctly, what you’ve taught Edmund is, God’s invitation to man. This is God revealing Himself and inviting man into sacramental life with Him. And then the third and fourth pillars of the Catechism, on the Christian life and then a life in prayer is man’s response or humanity’s response to God. So in the first pillar we talked about the Creed. It goes through everything that we believe. The second pillar, liturgy and the sacraments. “How do we enter into and celebrate what we believe through the specific ways that God has invited us to do so; the sacraments which are instituted by Christ?” And now we are into morality. “So how do we live the life of accepting that invitation?” “What does it look like to live in Christ; in community with God and with God’s people all around us?” Maybe you can talk a little bit about the structure of pillar three. How does the Catechism present pillar three to us?
Edmund Mitchell:
Yeah, that’s great. And I love when we take a moment to talk about those things because in a lot of the videos we’re just focusing on the teaching, but the Church has said that even the structure itself of the Catechism is instructive. So what you’re saying is the order matters. And if we take time to think about it, the order’s really important. The Catechism doesn’t open with morality, but also even within the third pillar itself, the way it’s structured is interesting. So each pillar has a first and second section, if you will. The first section often goes much more broad. And then the second section goes line by line through some formula of that pillar. An example is the Creed. The first section is on faith, but then the second section of the first pillar on the Creed goes line by line through the Apostles Creed, the sacraments; what is liturgy and sacraments? But then each sacrament, and then in morality, we have “What is relationship with God and man?” “What is our vocation to life in the spirit; life in Jesus like?” And then it breaks down the 10 Commandments, but also setting up first the Beatitudes. And I think that’s really important for what we’re gonna talk about later, is that it’s not just the “thou shalt nots”, it’s also the Beatitudes are the “happys.” You can be blessed and happy by living this life in Christ, which Jesus calls us into something even deeper than just following the Commandments. And then, just real quickly, the fourth pillar on prayer. It’s like, “what is prayer?” But then it walks through line by line, the Our Father. So this structure that really helps us when we’re talking about morality, to make sure we’re keeping in mind that morality comes after all these gifts that God gives us in the sacraments and in the Creed and in Jesus. That’s really what we should think about when we’re using the third pillar for catechesis.
Emily Mentock:
I think a main takeaway is that for sound catechesis; for how the Holy Spirit has guided those who put this Catechism together, the order matters. So thanks for explaining how we see that consistency in each pillar presenting the overall goals; explaining the foundational beliefs before we get into the specifics that that pillar covers. And I think it’s really important for us to know that the same thing is in morality. Before we get into the specifics of what does a moral life in Christ look like, first we need to talk about how we’re made for goodness; we’re made for love; how God is calling us to infinite happiness; His Beatitude. That it’s what we’re made for and how we are called to love our neighbors through that. And to your point, also the Beatitude. So starting with the fulfillment of that moral life in Christ before we get into some of the specifics of the “dos and don’ts.” I think for just a super foundational, practical takeaway for any catechist is before you get into the specifics, make sure people understand those important foundations of being made for God, by God, to love God, love neighbor, before we get into the specifics of what that looks like.
Edmund Mitchell:
People should never tire of repeating who Jesus is; who God is; in the invitation. And also you should challenge yourself to know how to explain every Church teaching in light of God’s love and plan and His invitation to us. And I think that’s missed a lot, especially because people want to jump straight into “So what is it that Catholics teach about contraception?” They want to jump straight into it and they want to kinda wrestle with it. And we forget that most people don’t know. They think they know the Gospel message, but they just haven’t heard it, you know?
Emily Mentock:
Yeah. And I don’t think it’s unfair to say that a lot of the people that we are trying to reach with our videos; that we are reaching with the project are people who, maybe in their time of catechesis at an earlier age in school and Confirmation prep from their parents, it was missed the emphasis on those foundational things before they got into the specifics. So it’s a lot easier to sort of shrug off or disagree with the Church’s teaching on a specific thing if you don’t understand or it hasn’t sunk in or been taught to you the important context of how that fits into what Jesus taught; Jesus’ overall message; the good news of the Gospel. So I think one of the things that we’re really trying to do, this was a very intentional strategy discussed with our board of advisors; the people who are reviewing every scripts, of “What is our approach to this pillar going to be so that we are not in any video or in anything that we’re doing, missing those foundational truths?” And “how we communicate the specifics of a moral life in Christ so that we can then more effectively unlock the truth of our faith for our target audience?” So people who value independence and freedom and free thinking and have maybe a healthy skepticism of authority; an open-mindedness but who are just like all of us; still seeking love and truth in the world. The Catechism makes it very clear that we were all called for that. But I think we also need to appropriately acknowledge the main points of where our audience is at from maybe not having been catechized in this way before.
Edmund Mitchell:
Yeah. What’s coming to mind is this idea that if you tried to reach into the Catechism and pull out one doctrine, there’s all of these strings and connections to the other doctrines and deeper or more, in some ways, fundamental teachings on who Jesus and the human person is. And so you want to know that context in the same way; like when you’re talking to one person and you try to like, pull on this person, there’s all of these strings of their family life and their cultural context and the media that they’re consuming. And so we want to understand the person who you’re talking to or presenting the faith; you want to understand that context because certain words might not have the same connotation, or certain approaches might not have. And it doesn’t mean “dumb down the message” or “change the message” but it just means we have to be mindful of the way we communicate it. And that’s something that you talk about a lot, Emily. And we have to remind ourselves a lot of “What is it that the audience is going to be hearing? Maybe the words are correct, but is there a different order or a different way or a different visual or something that they might hear; something we don’t intend them to hear?”
Emily Mentock:
Right. Yeah. “How do we meet those people where they are before we then try to bring them into where we hope that they will end up or where God has called them to be?” We see so many examples of this in the Gospels, and I think you also have noted and shared with me before how Sherry Waddell, someone who’s on our board of advisors for the project, how she has invited catechists and parish ministers to reframe the order of how we invite people.
Edmund Mitchell:
There’s this idea that maybe in the past you could take for granted that a person who you were teaching doctrines of the faith; they already belonged to a Christian family or a Christian community, and they already believed in God. So what you’re teaching them is what comes next, which is like, “how do you live?” “How do you live in this community and with this belief?” And so this simple way of summarizing that, of “belong, believe, behave.” And so when we assume those first two things, we kind of start in catechesis with “behave,” but in a modern context, a lot of people don’t belong to Christian communities or they show up, but they don’t actually belong; in the sense that they don’t feel like they belong or feel heard or feel like their opinion is heard.
And then a lot of people don’t believe. And so kerygmatic catechesis is first presenting that invitation to belong as part of a community; that they feel heard, that they feel seen, and then inviting them to believe. And then that “behave,” like, “here’s how the moral life should look.” That comes in the context of both of those things. So instead of “behave, then believe, then belong, then you can belong to our group.” It’s more like, “how do we help people belong to a group, invite them to believe, and then challenge them to behave in the way that Jesus behaves?” One other thing I’ll share is Sherry Waddell’s book, Intentional Disciples. We’ve talked about these three spiritual journeys. So there’s the journey of the personal interior; journey of faith. Like “I believe myself in God and what He says.” Then there’s the journey of the sacramental life; integration into the Church, and then there’s the journey of active practice. And people throughout their lives might be at different points in those three areas. There might be times where they’re behaving but they don’t believe, or maybe they’re believing, but not behaving or belonging. So to go a little deeper into that, I’d recommend that people read that chapter in particular on the spiritual journeys.
Emily Mentock
I think that what you’re saying is it’s so important for us to know who we’re made for God’s invitation to us before we can then pursue that life in Christ. And I think that really informed what we wanted to start with for this whole pillar in the videos that we’re creating. So I think as people know, and I don’t wanna get too specific into each video, but for every unit there’s a unifying statement; a unifying thesis that in the Proclamation video, we’re trying to point people to start asking a question that that thesis answers. In the Explanation video, we’re really diving into what the Catechism says that supports that thesis. And then the Connection video we’re explaining, “Well, then what does that look like in real life? How do I connect this teaching to my real life?” And so the thesis for this unit is that it starts with those foundational things that “Life in Christ fulfills our divine vocation and our heart’s desires to share in God’s own happiness.”
And it was even an intentional choice to use the more vernacular word of God’s happiness instead of even God’s Beatitude so that as people encounter any of those three videos because you’re sharing them in your catechesis classroom; because you are sending them to a friend; if someone just happens to find it in YouTube, that the overall takeaway will be that God created us to share in this life, and it’s our vocation to share in happiness with God. I think that laying that foundation is so important before we then get into the more hot-button topics that could come up in the rest of pillar three.
Edmund Mitchell:
Yeah. And I think that’s a good place to start talking about. It’s like, “how do we practically respond if we’re trying to present the Gospel in the best way? We’re trying to present doctrine in the context of love and invitation and happiness. What do we do when people respond really critically?” I know that we’ve talked with some different church ministers who have felt that way, where they’re like, “I feel ill-equipped when someone responds so strongly.” And I think there’s some ways to help people see that as not a scary thing, but actually really exciting, like, people are engaged; this is an awesome opportunity, but it can, I admit, it can be scary when someone responds so strongly against something that you’re presenting for belief.
Emily Mentock:
Yeah. I love that alternative way to look at it where the other reality of this section of the Catechism is that there are a lot more people who are asking the hard questions about these truths than are probably asking about the sacraments. So if someone has kind of fallen away from the Church, they’re probably not asking the hard questions about baptism or anointing of the sick. So there is maybe less opportunity to engage, or you have to kind of help them understand why they should care, so that then you can help them actually understand it better. But that’s not the case for morality. People are already asking the hard questions. So changing your mindset to say, “this is an opportunity to really engage in dialogue, present Jesus to somebody in a loving and truthful way” is a great way to look at it, I think. And maybe you have some practical advice, Edmund, from the Catechism, from our advisors that you’ve spoken with preparing for this pillar and even just from your own10 years as a parish minister experience for how to then present this in a more effective way.
Edmund Mitchell
Well, I think what you’re saying is people don’t often think they care about the Church teaching on the Trinity, or the Incarnation, or the Church’s definition of the human person necessarily, but they do care about “Well, why is it that this church I go to is saying that my friends who are my neighbors and who I care about that are of the same gender can’t get married?” And so they do care about that, and it is an opportunity to say, “You know, we could talk about that, but what you’re really interested in actually is the nature of love and the definition of the human person.” And it’s a really awesome inroad into those things where you might not have thought that the Church’s teaching on the Trinity had anything to do with that, but it actually does.
And that’s one actual example that has happened in small groups is that particular issue. For example, someone we were trying to just talk about something completely unrelated and these teens just really wanted to dive into “Why can’t two people of the same gender get married?” And we started navigating it and this is something I recommend is to ask people a follow-up question after you’re really listening to what they’re saying; the follow-up questions to try to get deeper, which is like, “what do you believe a person is?” Or “what do you believe love is?” Or “what do you believe the human person is made for?” Iis the human person made for something or are we just created and then that’s it?” And that’s a really helpful way to start relating it back to the Gospel message and just making sure that we’re at least starting from the same foundation.
And then I found that like oftentimes people are like, “Look, I might not agree with where you ended up, but I do agree that God is love, and I’m starting to understand the definition of the Church; the Church’s definition of the human person could get there.” So you could find a lot more in common. And one more thing, I’m sure Emily, you have some examples of this. I’d be interested to hear what you have to say about this, but I think sometimes when people speak up against certain Church teachings, it can be really tempting, and I used to be this way, like “I’ve read so much about it that I just want to jump in and give you the answer” instead of really hearing what they care about. So in particular when someone is saying, “I just feel like my friends should be able to get married,”there’s something good that they’re trying to value, and what they value is people’s freedom or maybe they value an idea of love. They’re not saying that just because they hate the Church, they’re saying it because they feel deep down, “There’s something I feel intuitively is good and I’m having a hard time unifying that with the practical implication.” So I think listening really effectively, like “what is it they really care about?” Oh my gosh. I just blanked on the controversial topic I was thinking of.
Emily Mentock:
There’s so many to pick from.
Edmund Mitchell:
Yeah. It’s like, for instance, let’s say contraception, it’s like, “Why is that okay?” And what they’re valuing is they don’t want someone to just come in and force somebody to do something. So their value is like, “I feel like people are made to be free.” And it’s like, “Well, yeah, actually the Church does teach that. That’s not what we’re saying here. We’re saying something different.” So finding that common ground and what they’re deep down intuitively sensing is good and valuable, you know?
Emily Mentock:
Yeah, definitely. I think the Catechism makes it so clear in this pillar and in this unit that we’ve just published, that we’re made for good; we’re made to share in that goodness. We can’t disregard that teaching and then hammer down the specific rules about the Church’s teaching on same sex marriage or contraception or war, whatever it is, like how to treat those who are needy. We have to start with believing that people are created for good. They are inherently attracted to goodness, and there is a lot of disorder and even evil in our world. But if we’re going to bring that goodness and share that good news with people, we need to not assume that they’re bad. We have to meet them where they are, listen, and then we can move forward in dialogue with them.
And I think that’s where the catechists and parish leaders, parents; whoever is using these materials; the best stories are not just that they showed someone a video and then they got it, which is great. Sometimes we get those comments on social media from the people that we reached directly, like where something just clicks and that’s worked on their own. But if you’re really accompanying someone, you’re able to know “what is the right way to address that issue?” What is the real pain point here? Is it trying to understand God is love? Okay, well that’s a different part of the Catechism that we can address. Is it about free will and forming consciousness? That’s a different part of the Catechism.” Is it because people really want to know “where did Christ say that this is what the sacrament of matrimony is?” “Well, that’s a different part of the Catechism,” and that accompaniment that the catechists that we know who’ve shared with us this project has been helpful to them makes it that much more effective what we can even do reaching people on our own. So as we get ready to wrap up, um, I think one thing that I would just really encourage people to do as we are also diving in getting ready to explore this pillar of the Catechism, or if you’re getting ready to teach your semester on morality and your classroom, to also start with Evangelii Gaudium; the Joy of the Gospel by Pope Francis, because that really speaks into..I mean there’s many, many documents and things that popes and saints have written about what evangelization looks like, but I think it speaks really effectively for what evangelization looks like in our time, what it means to be a joyful missionary in today’s world and just directly invites people to think about how a life in Christ relates to all the other teachings of the Church.
And I think it’s just a really important resource for people to keep in mind for any evangelizing catechesis that they’re doing, but especially before we dive into morality of the life in Christ.
Edmund Mitchell:
Yeah. I would recommend that because it’s so beautiful how it incorporates recent Church documents on evangelization, catechesis, the call to do evangelization, but also talks about the modern context and audience. And also Pope Francis talks about some of the temptations we have when working in the Church; these kind of like false mentalities around catechesis, evangelization, and the life as missionary disciples. So that’s a great resource, which seems like, “Well, I’m gonna teach on morality, why would I read that Church document? “But I really think it’s helpful and has a lot of the things that we talked about in this episode in it.
Emily Mentock:
Absolutely. Well, we are so excited to dive into pillar three of the Catechism with you all. I can’t believe we are past two years of this journey.
Edmund Mitchell
I know. If you have any questions that are coming up in your ministry that are related to teaching, morality, or teaching the life in Christ, not just about this unit that’s kicking off the entire pillar, but that would be helpful for us to know before we are creating the videos and the content for all the other topics that are gonna come up in this pillar, definitely let us know. You can comment here on the video and social media. You can send us a message on our website at realtrue.org and we would love to hear from you so that we can continue to better serve you and put more effective resources in your hands to, unlock the truth and beauty of the Catechism and help people all around the world encounter it’s pulsating heart: Jesus Christ.
Emily Mentock:
So if you’re new to Real + True welcome! I’ll recap our mission. We believe the Catechism is the faithful echo of a God who desires to reveal himself to us, and we need to transform it into a living voice that people can hear; people in the modern world. So please visit realtrue.org to listen to past episodes of this podcast. And you can also subscribe on YouTube, Spotify; pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts. We create animated videos as we are working our way through the entire Catechism. We’ve just begun pillar three. We also create discussion guides to go along with those videos to help you use them more effectively in your ministry. So check out our website and subscribe to the podcast and we’ll look forward to talking with you next time.
Edmund Mitchell:
Yeah, thanks!
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