Video Transcript

Edmund Mitchell:

Hello everyone, and welcome back to The Real and True Podcast. I’m one of your co-hosts, Edmund Mitchell, and today we have a really exciting episode with Dr. Joseph White. We’re going to be exploring the intersection of psychology and the human sciences and what they have to offer to catechesis. We’re also going to be talking to him about better methods for catechesis and what we can learn, especially from the Directory of Catechesis. So I’m really excited for this. If you’re not familiar with Dr. Joseph White, he’s a licensed family and child psychologist, a former parish catechetical leader, and he serves as associate publisher for Our Sunday Visitor and on the board of advisors for Real and True. So he’s helping give feedback on scripts and in all the videos and content that we’re making. He’s the author of 12 books, including A Catechist Guide to the Directory for Catechesis and Early Childhood Religious Education from A to Z. And Dr. White has been presenting training workshops to, at conferences for catechetical leaders, psychologists, therapists, and his primary areas of focus are in catechesis and psychology and that intersection. So, Dr. White, thank you so much for being here. I’m really excited for this episode.

Dr. Joseph White:

Thanks, Edmund. It’s great to be with you.

Edmund Mitchell:

So could you give us maybe a quick background? I love hearing people share their passion and how they got to be doing what they’re doing. Like, Catechesis in psychology. I don’t know that many people when they’re 10 or 16 go, “These are the two areas I want to do my life’s work on.” Like how did you get into this?

Dr. Joseph White:

Well, I took a lot of psychology coursework in high school actually. And it was interesting because it was a way to get myself out of a math class that I didn’t really want. But it opened my eyes to something; a field that I found very interesting. So I ended up majoring in psychology throughout my schooling. And I was in graduate school for clinical psychology and I just happened to attend a graduate school, Virginia Commonwealth University. That is a state school. If you know Virginia Commonwealth University, you might know them for basketball because they tend to be pretty strong there. But it’s a state university that is built around the Catholic Cathedral of the Diocese of Richmond. The cathedral was there first and then the university sort of grew up on one side of it and then sort of surrounded it.

And and so with this cathedral in the center of the university, I always found myself kind of drawn to the cathedral. I had grown up with an Evangelical background and then had drifted away from that as I began to question some of what I had believed growing into my young adult years and trying to sort of make my faith my own. But the short story is that I ended up checking out that church and learned about what Catholics believe and started the RCIA process at the time, now called OCIA. And when I became Catholic, I said to the DRE, the Director of Religious Education there, who was also the person who coordinated the RCIA team, “I just wished so much that I would have become Catholic before I started graduate school because I might’ve wanted to go into catechesis or theology or something like that.”

And she said to me, “Well, Joseph, you never know what God has planned.” And those were prophetic words because later, after I finished my postdoctoral fellowship, I was asked by the pastor of the parish where I was, “Would you and your wife consider leading the Religious Ed program after your fellowship is done? And we’ll also give you space in this parish to have a small private practice part-time as well.” And that was an offer I couldn’t refuse because I was already thinking, “Where am I going to work after I <laugh> finished school?” And so that’s really how I got into that field. I was already doing a little bit of writing in catechesis because it was something I was interested in; my wife and I were volunteer catechists. But I naturally began to kind of look for some of those intersections, you know, between psychology and catechesis.

Edmund Mitchell:

Man, that’s amazing. It’s beautiful how God, He has to, well, not has to, but He planned to use unique individuals to repeat a message. And the message doesn’t change, but what changes or what we offer humbly is our own hearts; our own witness and testimony. So it’s so cool to see you passionate about that and God using that. And so we set up in the last episode, we talked a little bit because we’re on our way through the third pillar of the Catechism, which discusses the moral teachings of life in Christ and the moral teachings of the Church; the 10 Commandments. And these are areas that sometimes are tricky for catechists or for those being catechized. It can be challenging sometimes; brings up controversial topics or just things maybe in the secular culture; conversations and pushback.

And we talked a little bit about some of the authentic approaches to catechesis and its methods in the past episode. But I would love to, now in this episode, talk a little more about psychology and education; what we can learn from these things to aid us in catechesis while also talking a little bit about some of those authentic methods of catechesis. So maybe you could give us, from your perspective, what are the biggest insights that you’ve brought to or just seen in psychology and education that have kind of helped in the work of catechesis?

Dr. Joseph White:

Yeah. Well, you know, first I’d like to say there’s precedent in our Church documents for talking about this intersection. And we’re called to do that in the New Directory for Catechesis when it talks about how we need to be faithful both to God and faithful to humanity. Obviously in catechesis, our top priority is being faithful to God; is handing down the authentic message that was handed on to us by the apostles and has been handed down by the Church through the generations. But faithfulness to humanity means when we take that message and when we communicate to others about it, we need to understand where that other person is and how to say it in a way that they will really understand and be able to resonate with, right? So it’s important that we know the different ages and stages of how people grow and change and how they think and what they can understand, especially when we’re talking about child catechesis of children; to understand “What can kids learn at different ages and how are they thinking about things?”

And the more that we delve into that, and this is something I’m really excited about right now because I’ve been doing a lot of thinking and writing and speaking about this. We begin to identify certain ages and stages where people are going through a particular window of development that makes certain topics really relevant for them. And I’ll give you an example: there are two ages when social scientists say that people think most about their future selves. “What kind of man; what kind of woman will I be as an adult?” Two ages. One of them is age 17, which makes sense. In our culture we define 18 as the age of majority. And people are probably being asked a lot by relatives and friends, “What do you plan to do? Are you going to go to school? What kind of job are you gonna have?” So it makes sense that at age 17 kids are thinking a lot about “What kind of adult will I be?” But the other age might surprise people. The other age where kids are thinking most about what kind of adults they will be is at age 11. And when we think about that, it makes some sense because there’s a lot of physical growth at that time. Kids can’t really look in the mirror without realizing, “Hey, I’m not gonna be a little girl or a little boy forever; I am becoming a young man or a young woman.” And so naturally, their mind goes to the question, “What kind of young man or woman will I be?” And so this provides us with an ideal window of opportunity to talk about vocations, right? We do often talk about vocations for those older high school students, but are we doing vocations talks for 11 year olds?

Are we introducing them to marriage, to religious life, to holy orders; prompting them to think about “Might God call me down the road to any of these consecrated vocations?” And I think the larger issue of whether or not God calls me to those particular vocations, “What kind of vocation with a small letter v will I have in my life? What is God’s call in my life and how am I called to use the talents that I have?” So that’s just one example. But we’ve been able to, through child development study, through what we’ve learned from education and psychology and neuropsychiatry, to really identify multiple examples like that. Where we can say, “this is the right time to talk about this topic if we really want the most bang for our buck; if we really want people to be most prompted to respond.”

Edmund Mitchell:

Yeah. That’s so beautiful. I feel like I might know the answer to this, so maybe this is a softball, but I’m wondering: “Have you found that people maybe push back a little bit about incorporating or learning from modern psychology or the human sciences as a way to aid us in catechesis?” In the last episode, we were talking about how the Church and God has showed us the method He used to reveal Himself to us so we need to learn from that method if we’re going to be helping people receive the Gospel and the divine revelation. And I know that there might be some people out there that are like, “Well, is this some type of weird, like, I don’t want to put modern science in the context of catechesis.” How do you answer those questions where someone goes, “Well, is this okay for us to be doing?”

Dr. Joseph White:

So in the Directory for Catechesis, there are multiple mentions of sort of, twofold responsibilities. And I mentioned one of them: faithfulness to God and faithfulness to humanity. Another one that’s mentioned is a twofold responsibility with regard to the human sciences. So one is our responsibility to use what we’ve learned from the human sciences to make our work as catechists more effective. And I’ve talked about that. But the other responsibility is being able to look and evaluate what we know from the human sciences through the lens of our faith. And so in every science, there are discoveries made, there are facts that are garnered, and then there also are conclusions that are drawn from those facts. And so when people feel like there’s a tension between faith and science; between our Church teaching and what scientists are saying, and that we know that’s a common issue for young people today; that they feel a tension between those things.

Dr. Joseph White:

I think what they’re sensing is not so much a tension between, or a conflict between faith and science, but a conflict between faith and the conclusions that some people draw from science. And so when we’re looking at science and scientific discoveries through the light of our faith, we’re careful about the conclusions that we draw to make sure if, for example, we see evidence in the sciences that life may have developed through a process of evolution of natural selection. If we see that evidence in the sciences, we don’t automatically assume, “Well, there’s no God, and God didn’t create humans. This natural selection process created humans.” I use that example because multiple times the Church has officially proclaimed, “There’s no real conflict between our Catholic faith and the theory of evolution provided that we still understand that whatever processes God used, He is the creator of all life.”

And so it’s that nuance that I think we have to approach the human sciences with; not to jump to conclusions that would be inconsistent with our faith, but to use the data; the facts that we gain from the sciences and say, “How can knowing more about people and how they’re made help us be better catechists?” Because in reality, God is the author of both. He’s the author of our faith, and He’s also the author of human development. And so we can’t be afraid to find out and use what we know about human development.

Edmund Mitchell:

Yeah, that’s such a great point. I love that you said that. And it’s almost like we turn to divine revelation, the Church and God to understand better how God reveals Himself so we know how to help reveal God to other people. But we also have to take into consideration the human person, and we can use divine revelation in the Church and God to kind of form a Catholic anthropology. Like, “What is the human person?” But if there are other tools; inquiry methods for learning more about the human person, and they’re not in contradiction to Catholic anthropology, then we could use those things in the Church. Is that like a fair way to say that?

Dr. Joseph White:

I think so. And I’m glad that you bring up Catholic anthropology and the Catholic vision of the human person because that’s a hot topic right now in catechesis. When you think about that, it certainly lends itself to understanding why we would want to know more about the human sciences to be effective as catechists, but also a major catechetical topic is that Catholic vision of the human person; helping our learners understand from a very early age that we are created mind, body, and spirit, and we’re created as a unity of mind, body, and spirit. We’re called to integrate those things. And St. John Paul II talks about in his Theology of the Body the idea that we can’t do something with the body without also doing that same thing with the mind and the spirit. These things hang together, right? And so you can’t artificially separate them. Understanding that and having that foundation from a very early age helps us to put things that sometimes are controversial in our culture, like the Church’s teachings on sexuality and relationships, helps to put those things in context. And I think if people don’t have that foundation in Catholic anthropology; if they haven’t heard this idea that we are an integrity of body, mind, and spirit, and then they hear about Church teachings on relationships and other things like that, that seems arbitrary or even archaic to them. “Why would they have this? Well, it doesn’t make sense.” Because it doesn’t make sense in the context that they’ve grown up with and that our pop culture is so heavily saturated with.

Edmund Mitchell:

I feel like in my experience, the third pillar of the Catechism, it can be kind of tricky sometimes but in some ways we talked about in last episode, in some ways easier to preach or to catechize on because people do have at least an opinion. And our job as catechists is to reveal, “Here’s God’s plan for you.” And for people to respond to that and say, “Well, now what must I do?” And so we’re revealing the moral teaching; we’re revealing “How do I live in community with God and with my neighbors in this life in Christ?” But when they’re wrestling with some of these topics, it really comes down to “What do you believe? Who do you believe God is? And who do you believe you are?” And so I’m interested to hear what you think about especially the moral teachers of the Church or the third pillar. What do you see as really necessary if we’re going to integrate psychology; these developmental needs we’ve talked about particularly, with moral growth and formation and virtue?

Dr. Joseph White:

I think one thing that we have to learn how to live with is the fact that people do have a lot of questions about this, and we need to be realistic about that. And they have a lot of struggle because of the context, especially in our American society today; the context that they’re growing up with and all of the different messages that they hear, many of which conflict with the teachings of our faith. So one thing we have to know and understand is that with regard to the moral teachings of the Church, people are most likely to struggle with this. And it’s most likely to be controversial because it’s more personal. Some things about our faith; some truths that are handed on to us are important and foundational, but they don’t shake up what we do in our everyday life in the same way that the moral teachings of the Church do.

So sometimes the moral teachings of the Church may feel inconvenient to us <laugh> they may affect what we’re doing in the most personal aspects of our life and some of the most practical aspects of our life. And so it’s natural that those then would be the ones that people would really take issue with. I think another thing to think about when we think of these things is that I don’t know anybody who hasn’t struggled with some teaching of the faith at some point, if they have grown in the faith. Growth involves struggle. And even if we’ve grown up Catholic, I shared that I didn’t, so you can imagine all of the different things I wrestled with as a graduate student coming into the Church. But even for folks who have grown up Catholic, part of making the faith their own is struggling with some of these questions and issues and thinking “Is this just what my parents believed? Or is this what I believe?” And so when people are asking questions about this, even if they’re contentious questions, even if they’re questions that stump us sometimes as catechists or others who might be talking with friends who are struggling with issues in the faith, one thing we can keep in mind and feel good about is if they’re asking questions, at least they’re engaged; at least they’re thinking about these things, which is the beginning of being able to embrace Church teaching. You’ve got to be curious; you’ve got to struggle a little bit to grow and to make the faith your own. And so knowing that, I think then we can say “I can appreciate this is a hard issue, or this is a good question that you have; keep walking with us. Let’s keep talking about it because I believe the Church has good answers about this.”

Edmund Mitchell:

Yeah. And aren’t there things from that we could learn from what we know from psychology and childhood development that should help us be a little more at ease at the pushing back? Isn’t that a natural part of childhood development is pushing back against these morals or just different structures around us?

Dr. Joseph White:

God has wired us to, as we approach young adulthood, to push back a little bit because we are working towards independence. And if we felt entirely dependent on our parents as young adults, we wouldn’t be able to go out into the world and forge our way and form our own families and all of the things that we might be called to do as adults. I don’t think it has to become destructive and I think sometimes it does; that tendency to push back or to rebel or the desire to be more independent. But a certain level of that certainly is healthy and understanding that I think helps us as well. And we can look at the adolescent when they’re asking questions about their faith and raising doubts and saying, “But what about this?” As, “Okay, they’re trying to kind of go through this process of making the faith their own and, and deepening their faith” because again, that growth involves struggle. And there’ll be struggle about something. Even people who are raised in the Church and never would think for a moment about leaving the Church at some point, if they’re diving deeper; if they’re moving from what St. John of the Cross might call “the beginner stage,” into a really deep faith, there’s gonna be some struggle there at some point; some Dark Night of the Soul; some time that they’re called to wrestle with some major issues to really reach that next level of deep faith.

Edmund Mitchell:

Yeah. So you and Dr. Petrock, who’s also an advisor to Real and True, you guys co-authored a book where you really brought these two fields and worlds together; the catechesis, the methodology, but also the psychology, the human sciences, and really provided some practical suggestions as well in the book you wrote, The Companion to the Directory for Catechesis, and I know the Directory also encourages various teaching methods. So I wonder if someone’s listening to this going, “Okay, I’m a little more motivated to be open to learning more from the human sciences, but what practically can I do, especially in relation to the third pillar of the Catechism, moral formation and the different age groups that I might be working with? What are some practical things? What are some examples of how this is carried out practically?”

Dr. Joseph White:

Well, one thing we know about, say, kids that are fourth grade or fifth grade give or take; 10 approaching that age of 11 that we talked about earlier, that’s so important, is that they are beginning to internalize their own ideas about morals and standards. They’re beginning to do that, but also they’re still very concrete thinkers. So when we talk about moral issues and virtuous practices with them, it’s hard for them to kind of imagine a situation they haven’t been in yet, and imagine what choice they might make in that situation. And so one thing I recommend to do with that age, say if you’re working with a group of fourth graders and you’re talking or talking about conscience formation; talking about the Commandments and the Beatitudes is to do like little role plays; act out making right choices in response to tricky situations. Like you’re on your PlayStation or whatever the kids are using these days, <laugh> and you’re just reaching a level of the game that you’ve never reached before, and Mom says, “I’ve told you three times to clean your room. Put that down now, and go clean your room.” Show me what you would do and how would the commandments of God help you make that decision? And so one thing we know from psychology is that we’re a little more likely to do something that we’ve said we would do; there’s like a little tug when <laugh> the situation presents itself and your conscience kind of goes, “You said you would do that.” We call that psychology cognitive dissonance. Like, “I don’t want to do that, but I said I would do it.”

But we’re a little more likely to do what we’ve said we would do. We’re actually a lot more likely to do what we’ve actually practiced because there are new connections that form in our brain; new little highways that are constructed in those neurons that allow us to do that action again; to repeat that action again even more easily. That’s why the more we practice something, the better we get at it. So actually role-playing and practicing making good choices, it can be very effective if we really want to form the consciences of young people that age. We also know that beginning of third grade, and certainly increasing every year, especially as we get into those adolescent years, the role of the group becomes really important; peers become very important. And so is it more effective to get in front of a whole group of 20 adolescents and kind of lecture them about what the Church teaches about morality? Or is it more helpful to put them in small groups that are moderated maybe by an adult catechist, where they can kind of have some back and forth and some discussion on these issues and talk about right choices and things like that? We already know it’s more effective to do that in that small group model with adolescents; that’s actually been tested in a couple of different ways as well.

Edmund Mitchell:

Yeah. You know, as you were talking, I was thinking, it’s various stages throughout my life where I wrestled with “Because I said so.” And it’s this idea that when you see as God sees, you’ll do as God says. Maybe when you’re younger, “Oh, well your parents say this,” and so you just do it that way. But as you’re getting older, you’re like, “Well, why should I do things this way?” And the same with God. It’s like, “God has these commandments, well, why would I do it this way?” But helping younger people or just helping people in general see as God sees; see how he sees us and how he sees virtue and the life in Christ. And then it’s a little bit easier to do <laugh> do as God says.

And I wonder, you know, particularly when we’re helping people respond to the Gospel and grow in virtue, when you’re sharing that role playing situation, I was thinking about how, it can be hard for catechists to know if they’re doing this well because they’re not in the students’ everyday lives; they’re not seeing them growing in virtue necessarily. So I wonder what you think about that? Is there anything that we could pick up on or look for in students or at different ages; any response to the moral teachers of the Church or the growth in virtue? Because if we’re teaching on prayer, for example, we could kind of see as we pray in class, kind of a change in shift. But I wonder about moral formation or growth in virtue, what we might be looking for to know that we’re doing this really well in an age appropriate way.

Dr. Joseph White:

Well, I think one thing we can do is make sure that we’re in conversation with our learners in catechetical setting and make sure that we offer opportunities for them to bring things to the group; to talk about what’s going on in their lives; to talk about questions that they have; talk about what they feel like God is telling them and leading them to in the events of everyday life. I think the more that we’re able to have those conversations, the more we will hear some of the fruits of what we’re working on in terms of moral teachings to the Church. But I think there’s also another dimension to that that’s really important. Jesus says in scripture, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” And I think sometimes people kind of take that to almost mean like what we do as human beings when we’re kind of trying to coerce people a little bit and say, “Well, if you love me, you’ll do this.”

I don’t think that’s the context in which Jesus is saying this. Number one, because He’s not manipulative, right? He <laugh> always offers us a choice because He wants us to do good because we chose to do good. I think what He’s saying is if we are in relationship with Him, we’re gonna naturally do what God calls us to do out of that love; out of that relationship. I mean, think about the adults that have been most formative for you, they didn’t have to hang big punishments over you to keep you in line. You loved them; you wanted to please them. And so the reason I mentioned that is, as we talk about forming those relationships and in our catechetical groups, certainly, you know, helping direct our learners toward a relationship with God; offering really strong prayer opportunities and other encounters with God in those sessions, but also forming that relationship with the Christian community.

The more that we feel connected and the more we have a loving relationship with our parish; our church, the more that we will feel motivated. “Let me sort out what this means; this teaching that I don’t quite understand; that I’m struggling with.” Instead of just walking away, “I want to be in relationship; I want to be connected to the Church. Let me keep working on that and, and figuring that out.” I think that’s one of the things that will motivate us. I think sometimes we feel like we can just make the intellectual argument strong enough; if our apologetics are good enough. And all of that is important, but it’s not just cognitive. When somebody makes a decision to walk away from the Catholic Church instead of staying and growing in faith, that’s not always, and probably not even mostly, an intellectual decision. There are other things that drive that. And so I think we can’t underestimate the power of relationship in all of that.

Edmund Mitchell:

Yeah, that’s so good. For me the story of St. John Bosco has been huge in just understanding just what’s even possible in building relationships with others and caring for students, and caring for those we’re catechizing in general. I think that’s such a good point that all of this really hinges on the relationship that we build.

Dr. Joseph White:

That was the most powerful tool for St. John Bosco for sure. But it’s also evident in his life; he was caring for a lot of orphan children and feeding them and taking care of their basic care. And people who worked alongside him would always come to him and say, “Listen, we’re taking on too many kids. We’re gonna run out of money. This is all gonna be a disaster.” And St. John Bosco would turn to them and say, “I trust in God. God is going to provide.” And God always did provide, but that speaks to that relationship that he had, first of all, with God. And then the way that he was able to by forming a close bond with those children that he worked with, led them into relationship with God as well.

Edmund Mitchell:

Wow. Yeah. That’s amazing. As we’re kind of closing this episode, I wonder if there are any of the big, what you see as common mistakes, or your big takeaway for catechists, evangelists, those who are in ministry, parents who are called to catechize and evangelize their children. What’s either the most common mistake that people miss that could help them or something that you feel like could be a really, really helpful, you takeaway that they could bring into their next situation maybe tomorrow?

Dr. Joseph White:

I think one common mistake that we make is assuming that knowing the facts of the faith is enough. We cannot live a faith we don’t know. So it’s definitely necessary, but my question is, is it sufficient? Do I naturally live out a Catholic life just because I know what the Catholic church teaches? And I, I think we have to say that to that. The answer is no. I mean, we, we know many people that have been through years of Catholic school or parish faith formation, sometimes in, in programs where people are poorly catechized, but other times where the information is solid and the texts are good, and, you know, everything that was talked about was correct but somehow they never connected with it. One thing I would say to the catechist, a passionate plea that I would make to the catechist, don’t ever teach a  fact about the faith with all without also connecting it with a way to live out the faith in the home and family, in the community, at school, in the parish.

St. James said, “Faith without works is dead.” Faith without works is not real faith. So once we know the faith, how are we going to live that out? And always make that part of every catechetical session with your learners. We sometimes hear people speak of “making the faith relevant for our young people.” Well, we don’t need to make the faith relevant; it is relevant. What we need to do is show them how it’s relevant. And, so we talk about, “How would this change what you do this week at school? Knowing this; knowing that God calls us to this, how does this change what we do at home?” And really getting into that conversation about how to practically apply the faith.

Edmund Mitchell:

Oh man, that’s so good. Yeah, I think that’s so great. And I know in the Directory and the Catechism, it talks about this, there’s a unity that all the pillars of the Catechism interconnect; that when we’re proposing something for belief, there’s a way for us to celebrate it in the sacraments. It’s this whole life has lived through prayer that there’s kind of ways for us to live this in our moral life with our neighbor and with God. And so it’s all interconnected, and I love you making that point.

Dr. Joseph White:

The Catechism talks about the unity of words and deeds and God’s own revelation of Himself; that He said things and then He did things, and those things went together. God always did what He said, and He said what He did. We’re created in the image and likeness of God, and we’re called to that same unity of words and deeds; that we’re called to know the faith and to articulate the faith, but also to express the faith in our everyday actions.

Edmund Mitchell:

Yeah. At first we might be presenting, “God is Trinity; a communion of persons. He invites us to this communion of His life and love.” And then people are half listening; I’m having this image of them half listening. But then when we get to the moral life where we start applying that, they’re like, “Wait a minute, how does this make sense?” And you’re like, “Well, this is the application of what we’ve been talking about.” We’re not just proposing it for intellectual belief, like you said, we’re proposing it because we need to respond in our own lives. And the connection of the words and deeds is so important. Well, thank you Dr. White, so much for being here. This is so good. I hope people listen to this episode twice, because there’s a lot of stuff in here where I hope they could see where they could jump off into other resources and areas and really think about this. Where can people go to find more of your work? I mean, obviously they could find your books on the OSV website, but where else would you like to direct people?

Dr. Joseph White:

I also have a channel on YouTube where I post a lot of my talks. I travel around the country doing talks for catechists and catechetical leaders and Catholic school teachers on sharing the faith with young people especially, but also with adults. And so I’d invite people to check that out as well. There are a lot of Joseph Whites out there, but if you put in “Joseph White Catechesis” into the search on YouTube, you’ll pull up my channel and you’ll see some of those talks there as well.

Edmund Mitchell:

Awesome. And we’ll also put links to your YouTube channel in the podcast description. Thank you so much everyone for listening. Again, this is the Real and True Podcast. Our mission at Real and True is to unlock the Catechism so people can understand what we believe, which is that the Catechism is a faithful echo of a God who desires to reveal Himself to us, and that we’re all helping transform this into a living voice that people can hear and respond to. And you can visit realtrue.org to watch our content there, or watch or listen to this podcast. I mean, you can also find this podcast on your favorite platforms like YouTube and Spotify. So we encourage you to comment below if something stood out to you or if you have questions or suggestions for future episodes. And again, we thank you so much and we will see you next time on The Real and True Podcast.